Passenger Trains > NS Chicago Line and Amtrak

One thing I have noticed is that with the current problems on the Chicago Line, the dispatchers on occasion seem to be holding the first Amtrak train until the second one catches up, and then running them a few minutes apart. For example 29 and 49 left Cleveland 93 minutes apart this morning, but by Waterloo 49 was only 11 minutes behind 29. This doesn't always happen, but it seems to occur more often than one would expect, and it looks like the dispatchers are running the two passenger trains as close together as possible to simplify things. This doesn't help Amtrak passengers.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 11:35 by Ptolemy.

I would be careful about accusing the freight railroad of doing this on purpose especially
since the 4 1/2 hours of delay were spread out over a considerable distance. If traffic
as a whole is flowing slowly, the same statistics could apply.

True, that doesn't play as well among conspiracy theorists who blame the Evil Freight
Railroads for every delay to Amtrak as well as the national debt, the price of tea in
China, water shortages in California, the heartbreak of psoraisis and dandruff.

And if you can't see the sarcasm in the second half of the last sentence...

* Train 29 of 09/25/2014.
* Capitol Limited
* +---------------- Station code
* | +----------- Schedule Arrival Day
* | | +-------- Schedule Arrival time
* | | | +----- Schedule Departure Day
* | | | | +-- Schedule Departure Time
* | | | | | +------------- Actual Arrival Time
* | | | | | | +------- Actual Departure Time
* | | | | | | | +- Comments
* V V V V V V V V
* WAS * * 1 405P * 405P Departed: on time.
* RKV * * 1 429P * 431P Departed: 2 minutes late.
* HFY * * 1 516P * 517P Departed: 1 minute late.
* MRB * * 1 545P * 546P Departed: 1 minute late.
* CUM 1 714P 1 724P 715P 724P Departed: on time.
* COV * * 1 947P * 947P Departed: on time.
* PGH 1 1148P 1 1159P 1118P 1159P Departed: on time.
* ALC * * 2 139A * 201A Departed: 22 minutes late.
* CLE 2 253A 2 259A 305A 313A Departed: 14 minutes late.
* ELY * * 2 329A * 505A Departed: 1 hour and 36 minutes late.
* SKY * * 2 402A * 546A Departed: 1 hour and 44 minutes late.
* TOL 2 508A 2 522A 820A 831A Departed: 3 hours and 9 minutes late.
* WTI * * 2 636A * 1125A Departed: 4 hours and 49 minutes late.
EKH * * 2 729A
SOB * * 2 751A
CHI 2 845A * * CT

Ptolemy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> One thing I have noticed is that with the current
> problems on the Chicago Line, the dispatchers on
> occasion seem to be holding the first Amtrak train
> until the second one catches up, and then running
> them a few minutes apart. For example 29 and 49
> left Cleveland 93 minutes apart this morning, but
> by Waterloo 49 was only 11 minutes behind 29.
> This doesn't always happen, but it seems to occur
> more often than one would expect, and it looks
> like the dispatchers are running the two passenger
> trains as close together as possible to simplify
> things. This doesn't help Amtrak passengers.

It isn't just 29 and 49 but 857 who are all stacked up one behind each other. 857 is the AAPRCO special and we have been sitting SE of Elkhart for well over an hour. Just now getting underway.

[Edit to correct AAPRCO Amtrak train number]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 13:21 by Cumbresfan.

I'm sorry, but your posts are so predictable.

Train 29 departed Elkhart 3:07 EDT, 7 hrs 38 minutes late! #49 being spotted Elkhart now. #857 stopped behind #49.

Elsewhere 1,700 flights have been cancelled and another 800 delayed at midwest airports following arson-caused fire at FAA ATC facility in Aurora, IL. Not a good day to be traveling in the Chicago area.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 13:23 by Cumbresfan.

#29 the "Capitol Punishment" finally arrived Elkhart at 3 pm - 11'47" to make a 239.8-mi run from Cleveland (20.4 MPH average speed).
A friend aboard told me that the DS had told the crews "you'll be held for a herd of turtles at CP 395." When he got to 395 he found one of the tracks out of service due to a road crossing being worked on.
Is anyone familiar conditions on the parallel Nickle Plate? Can the NKP not handle some of the trains that are going over the Chicago Line?
Other detour routes that could be looked at are:
CN/GTW between South Bend and Chicago
Chicago, Fort Waye and Eastern (former PRR) between Crestline and Chicago
Other self-help measures that CR used to undertake that we don't see on NS or CSX is staggered crew districts (for instance some crews going Chicago-Toledo and others Chicago-Elkhart and others Elkhart-Cleveland to keep places like Elkhart and Toledo from being plugged by relay trains changing crews. CR used to also tap different yards to take up the slack for one that is in trouble until the backlog was cleared up - we don't see this happening today on NS or CSX.
The delays that freight shippers have been incurring since the winter have caused many to complain to their elected officials, so the congestion is affecting many more beside Amtrak passengers.
Andy

The Fort Wayne line is severed in western Indiana.
Amtrak should consider truncating the trains at Toledo, busing to and from Chicago, and send NS the bill.
Perhaps some comments should be sent to the WSJ, CNBC, and FOX Business to demonstrate that their darling Emperor NS has no clothes on since it is not functioning.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 12:34 by joemvcnj.

So why is only NS affected? Or is every railroad in and out of Chicago affected? If not, then what i so special about NS that this has been going on for several days now? Misfortune? Incompetence? Or what?

The AAPRCO special is train 857, engine 97.

We're moving at reduced speed a few miles west of Elkhart

Posted from Android

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Amtrak should consider truncating the trains at
> Toledo, busing to and from Chicago, and send NS
> the bill.
>
Once again, you propose fewer trains instead of trying to run them well. How many passengers would be left if people had to ride a bus overnight from Chicago to Toledo? I presume you would be willing to do it, since it's your idea. Most people would prefer a late train. I once thought you supported train service, and did what you could to improve it, but you are just trying to get rid of it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 12:55 by Ptolemy.

In the mid 90's the Broadway ran over CSX into Chicago from Pittsburgh. Looking at some old schedules, the running time was within 5 min. of today schedule via Cleveland/Toledo.

I'm sure CSX would be delighted to operate the Capitol from Cleveland into Chicago and avoid NS portion. It is a double track railroad, as a result of the Conrail merger.

CSX has been having its own problems in northern Indiana and northwest Ohio, although right now it's pretty clear that NS is worse off. You don't hear about CSX's backups as stridently -- especially on this particular forum -- because no passenger trains use the ex-B&O main any more.

toledopatch is right. We've read on here about CSX being a parking lot in and out of Chicago, too. It just doesn't have any passenger trains on it.

The worst of the delays do appear to be between Toledo, Elkhart and Chicago. If Amtrak's going to try to continue to operate trains across this territory, it makes me wonder if it would be faster to operate Toledo-Detroit-Michigan City, then onto South Shore (as has been done with previous detour moves) toward the St. Charles Air Line and then Union Station, in order to avoid NS as much as possible. Yes, it would require pilot crews on the South Shore, might require combining the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited between Chicago and Toledo in order to conserve crews, might require a few adjustments. But it seems like it would be better than the hell that Amtrak is enduring from NS and inflicting on its passengers, with delays of 6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours just between Cleveland and Chicago.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/26/14 13:17 by knotch8.

px320 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The AAPRCO special is train 857, engine 97.
>
> We're moving at reduced speed a few miles west of
> Elkhart
>
> Posted from Android

So I have been informed - I was confusing it with yesterday's 449 which I believe was annulled due to late arrival of 448 into Boston on Wednesday.

I am surprised Amtrak has not issued a traveler's advisory regarding the CL and the LSL...I wonder what NS is telling them? The sad part is both of these trains are major market trains that serve a lot of passengers. I don't think complaining to Congress or anyone else for that matter is going to help. The bottom line is NS has too much traffic between CHI and CLE, that coupled with the trackwork going on has made the situation almost unsolveable in the short term. Plus we are going into fall when freight traffic tends to increase.

I wonder if Amtrak re-routed both trains via Toledo/Detroit to avoid Elkhart if that would help?

It's sad that Amtrak's management has not said anything about this issue or proposed any solutions given how long it has been going on.

Also I wonder how ridership has held up on these trains this summer?

knotch8 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> toledopatch is right. We've read on here about
> CSX being a parking lot in and out of Chicago,
> too. It just doesn't have any passenger trains on
> it.
>
> The worst of the delays do appear to be between
> Toledo, Elkhart and Chicago. If Amtrak's going to
> try to continue to operate trains across this
> territory, it makes me wonder if it would be
> faster to operate Toledo-Detroit-Michigan City,
> then onto South Shore (as has been done with
> previous detour moves) toward the St. Charles Air
> Line and then Union Station, in order to avoid NS
> as much as possible. Yes, it would require pilot
> crews on the South Shore, might require combining
> the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited between Chicago
> and Toledo in order to conserve crews, might
> require a few adjustments. But it seems like it
> would be better than the hell that Amtrak is
> enduring from NS and inflicting on its passengers,
> with delays of 6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours just
> between Cleveland and Chicago.


I had the same thought. Run around the congestion via Michigan.

I am on 448 a week from Monday. I have a bailout already figured out should I need it. Since I am going to Boston, I will drop off the train at BUF or SYR and fly if we are over 3 hours late (I have to connect to a bus to NH at South Station). Fine for me, and I can figure it out. But the average traveler should not be subjected to this (nor should I), and this sort of thing will manage to kill Amtrak long before Congress can do it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/28/14 06:40 by Chessie1963.

Chessie1963 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> knotch8 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > toledopatch is right. We've read on here about
> > CSX being a parking lot in and out of Chicago,
> > too. It just doesn't have any passenger trains
> on
> > it.
> >
> > The worst of the delays do appear to be between
> > Toledo, Elkhart and Chicago. If Amtrak's going
> to
> > try to continue to operate trains across this
> > territory, it makes me wonder if it would be
> > faster to operate Toledo-Detroit-Michigan City,
> > then onto South Shore (as has been done with
> > previous detour moves) toward the St. Charles
> Air
> > Line and then Union Station, in order to avoid
> NS
> > as much as possible. Yes, it would require
> pilot
> > crews on the South Shore, might require
> combining
> > the Lake Shore and Capitol Limited between
> Chicago
> > and Toledo in order to conserve crews, might
> > require a few adjustments. But it seems like
> it
> > would be better than the hell that Amtrak is
> > enduring from NS and inflicting on its
> passengers,
> > with delays of 6 hours, 8 hours, 10 hours just
> > between Cleveland and Chicago.
>
>
> I had the same thought. Run around the congestion
> via Michigan.
>
> I am on 449 a week from Monday. I have a bailout
> already figured out should I need it. Since I am
> going to Boston, I will drop off the train at BUF
> or SYR and fly if we are over 3 hours late (I have
> to connect to a bus to NH at South Station). Fine
> for me, and I can figure it out. But the average
> traveler should not be subjected to this (nor
> should I), and this sort of thing will manage to
> kill Amtrak long before Congress can do it.

Even if you are on-time out of Buffalo, you could end up many hours late into Chicago based on the current Elkhart meltdown.

Running Amtrak via the South Shore sounds very interesting. Does the SS schedule allow a ten or 12 car consist to slip in and run at track speed?

(Running on the South Shore could solve a few problems at the same time. I wonder if South Shore would be interested in hosting an oil train or two in the overnight hours? Amtrak makes a bundle for the couple of miles NS uses the Northeast Corridor in MD and DE for its oil trains and Baltimore trains.)

< Once again, you propose fewer trains instead of trying to run them well. How many passengers would be left if people had to ride a bus overnight from Chicago to Toledo? I presume you would be willing to do it, since it's your idea. Most people would prefer a late train. I once thought you supported train service, and did what you could to improve it, but you are just trying to get rid of it.>

And again you fail to realize that people are looking for transportation, not a joy ride on a choo-choo train. Did you poll them if they preferred a bus transfer to be 3 hours late than on a train 8 hours late, and possibly a day late with their missed connections ? You might ask that of 48's people who got off at NYP at 430am rather than 10 hours prior.

< It's sad that Amtrak's management has not said anything about this issue or proposed any solutions given how long it has been going on. >

And it directly follows that NARP has not said a word about it either, including this week's Hotline, as though this "Friend of the Court" thing is going to solve it if Amtrak won the decsion.