Passenger Trains > SEPTA - fix your AEM7s

It's a semi-regular event that one of SEPTA's AEM-7s will have problems on the Thorndale Line (I prefer to think of it as the R5). Last Friday night, for example. Photo shows a couple hundred of us who had to wait in the freezing cold last Friday evening at Paoli for the following train to take us westward. Delay was over an hour. There have been times in the last six months when Thorndale rush hour passengers got home 4 hours late on SEPTA buses after similar issues. Also delayed were several hundred psgrs aboard the following train and another SEPTA train that was behind that one. Probably more including an Amtrak Keystone, but that's all I saw.

SEPTA's "Flyers" with AEM-7s and Bombardier coaches are always jam packed on this busy route. SEPTA should have the capital money now that the PA transportation bill was passed last year to either fix the motors or buy some Sprinters. This isn't just a winter issue with the AEM-7s, by the way, they can fail in any weather.

At Paoli we were on Track 3, one track away from the Track 4 platform. The entire fully loaded 7-car train of passengers was made to get out at Paoli via ONE doorway! Maybe that was the only cross-track wood walkway available, but that took forever. The root cause was the beat up AEM-7.

I'll leave the track/signal/catenary problems with the aged interlocking at Thorndale for another time.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/15 12:40 by RRTom.

---

RRTom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I'll leave the track/signal/catenary problems with
> the aged interlocking at Thorndale for another time.

Those issues would be Amtrak's responsibility, no? Is SEPTA responsible for maintenance of the outer (local) tracks on that line, or is the work done by AMTK and billed to SEPTA?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/15 14:00 by CPR_4000.

CPR_4000 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Those issues would be Amtrak's responsibility, no?

Well...at Thorndale there are three tracks, with Track 2 being in the middle not used very much by either Amtrak or SEPTA. Amtrak owns the line but SEPTA is the biggest user (btwn Philadelphia and Thorndale). Amtrak Keystones get delayed at Thorndale, too, and almost any SEPTA delay anywhere on the line affects Amtrak.

PennDOT wants to rebuild THORN as part of Amtrak Keystone Corridor improvements, but they haven't shown the money yet. I think this is years away at best.

You may be aware that Thorndale has a SIX-track universal (i.e. all crossovers both directions, all tracks) crossover still in place from PRR days. It appears to be barely holding together, and the nearby Fraser substation is ancient as well.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/15 13:19 by RRTom.

RRTom Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> CPR_4000 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> > Those issues would be Amtrak's responsibility,
> no?
>
> Well...at Thorndale there are three tracks, with
> Track 2 being in the middle not used very much by
> either Amtrak or SEPTA. Amtrak owns the line but
> SEPTA is the biggest user (btwn Philadelphia and
> Thorndale). Amtrak Keystones get delayed at
> Thorndale, too, and almost any SEPTA delay
> anywhere on the line affects Amtrak.
>
> PennDOT wants to rebuild THORN as part of Amtrak
> Keystone Corridor improvements, but they haven't
> shown the money yet. I think this is years away
> at best.
>
> You may be aware that Thorndale has a SIX-track
> universal (i.e. all crossovers both directions,
> all tracks) crossover still in place from PRR
> days. It appears to be barely holding together,
> and the nearby Fraser substation is ancient as
> well.

Good thing the geniuses of the Warrington Administration chose to prioritize installing concrete ties on the local commuter tracks and low speed (100 mph and less) express tracks over rebuilding outmoded interlockings and substations and expanding the physical plant at key chokepoints when presented with that choice in the late 1990's. Since the TLM is so cool, and the Rocla ties are so bad, we are now on the second round of installation already to get rid of all the ones that are failing. $1.5 million per mile to run the TLM at a rate of about 1 mile per week. Sometimes there are two of them running trying to rid the corridor of these ties, and this has now been going on for nearly a decade.

When you hear people talk about how Amtrak doesn't get the money it needs for outmoded interlockngs like Thorn (or Grundy or Hook or Phil or some many others that litter the division), just remember where the money it gets is actually going.

Are any of the Amtrak AEM-7's being retired in any better shape than SEPTA's ?

That is the trouble with loco-hauled trains over MU - single-point of failure.

I rode from PHL to Thorndale for the first time last fall and was surprised to see quite a bit of ballast pumping due to poor drainage on the westbound local track. The condition of the interlockings was also a surprise. The Silverliner V made an excellent inspection vehicle, however!

First, to RR Tom, and all of the other poor suckers stuck in the cold at Paoli.....I get it. I've spent at least one night per year during the past 10 years waiting on the WB Paoli platform for a train.

That being said, there are many unreliable entities poking their way into a safe and on time operation of the old R5.

In my mind, the fist failure is the Bombardier Train sets (feel free to shoot me down....but I think they are a problem)
Number two is the power and interlocking system on Amtrak between Overbrook and Paoli / /Thorndale.....again, I've said too much, but its' worth a look.....and its probably out of date.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RRTom Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > CPR_4000 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > >
> > > Those issues would be Amtrak's
> responsibility,
> > no?
> >
> > Well...at Thorndale there are three tracks,
> with
> > Track 2 being in the middle not used very much
> by
> > either Amtrak or SEPTA. Amtrak owns the line
> but
> > SEPTA is the biggest user (btwn Philadelphia
> and
> > Thorndale). Amtrak Keystones get delayed at
> > Thorndale, too, and almost any SEPTA delay
> > anywhere on the line affects Amtrak.
> >
> > PennDOT wants to rebuild THORN as part of
> Amtrak
> > Keystone Corridor improvements, but they
> haven't
> > shown the money yet. I think this is years
> away
> > at best.
> >
> > You may be aware that Thorndale has a SIX-track
> > universal (i.e. all crossovers both directions,
> > all tracks) crossover still in place from PRR
> > days. It appears to be barely holding
> together,
> > and the nearby Fraser substation is ancient as
> > well.
>
> Good thing the geniuses of the Warrington
> Administration chose to prioritize installing
> concrete ties on the local commuter tracks and low
> speed (100 mph and less) express tracks over
> rebuilding outmoded interlockings and substations
> and expanding the physical plant at key
> chokepoints when presented with that choice in the
> late 1990's. Since the TLM is so cool, and the
> Rocla ties are so bad, we are now on the second
> round of installation already to get rid of ating. $1.5 million per mile
> to run the TLM at a rate of 1 mile per week.
> Sometimes there are two of them running trying to
> rid the corridor of these ties, and this has now
> been going on for nearly a decade.
>
> When you hear people talk about how Amtrak doesn't
> get the money it needs for outmoded interlockngs
> like Thorn (or Grundy or Hook or Phil or some many
> others that litter the division), just remember
> where the money it gets is actually going.

Andrew make that 3/4 to a mile a day for the TLM unless they hit rock formations in the subgrade ...

Posted from Android

Since the post and failures noted are all about the AEM-7's, what
are there comments on the interlockings?

I too wondered if Amtrak had some AEM-7's that were (will be) in
better shape then SEPTA's current fleet (is it 2, or 4?).

Are Sprinters an option? (Money talks, I suppose).

As for interlockings - not very familiar with their operation.
What is "wrong" with the current ones - how would new interlockings
benefit? I know they will, but not being familiar, wondering just
how?

/Mitch

Why are they in such bad shape when they have been run far more gently than Amtrak's, which still storm up and down the NEC at 125MPH every day, with one or two rather slow round trips a day between a suburb and Philly ?

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are they in such bad shape when they have been
> run far more gently than Amtrak's, which still
> storm up and down the NEC at 125MPH every day,
> with one or two rather slow round trips a day
> between a suburb and Philly ?

Good question. SEPTA doesn't even run their AEM-7s on the weekends!

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the post and failures noted are all about
> the AEM-7's, what
> are there comments on the interlockings?
>
> As for interlockings - not very familiar with
> their operation.
> What is "wrong" with the current ones - how would
> new interlockings
> benefit? I know they will, but not being
> familiar, wondering just
> how?
>
Re: interlockings: Overbrook, Bryn Mawr and Thorn interlockings are all beyond their useful lives. Parts of the turnouts, signals and catenary fail periodically; delays are not uncommon. It is very hard to keep everything together and I think there are slow orders at Bryn Mawr and Thorn that have been in place for a long time. I think Thorn in particular is a disaster waiting to happen. There used to be six tracks there, with crossovers connecting all tracks. Now there are only three main tracks but the old six track crossover is still there, and almost every SEPTA train has to cross the entire plant one way. The trains really rock back and forth traversing this interlocking. Amtrak is waiting for the state to upgrade this.

New interlockings at these locations (PennDOT has preliminary designs already) will include all new turnouts, catenary and signals. Bryn Mawr will be moved to Villanova and Overbrook will be moved eastward to tangent track. Thorndale/Caln will become three interlockings spread out over 2 miles. The turnouts will be good for higher speeds and be located to suit the Amtrak and SEPTA operations now and the increased service planned for the future. Thorn was the junction with the P&T branch which was removed in the 80s, along with the freight yard at Thorndale.

abyler Wrote:
> Good thing the geniuses of the Warrington
> Administration chose to prioritize installing
> concrete ties on the local commuter tracks and low
> speed (100 mph and less) express tracks over
> rebuilding outmoded interlockings and substations
> and expanding the physical plant at key
> chokepoints when presented with that choice in the
> late 1990's. Since the TLM is so cool, and the
> Rocla ties are so bad, we are now on the second
> round of installation already to get rid of all
> the ones that are failing. $1.5 million per mile
> to run the TLM at a rate of about 1 mile per week.
> Sometimes there are two of them running trying to
> rid the corridor of these ties, and this has now
> been going on for nearly a decade.

Good points. I was told SEPTA paid for the concrete ties on the outside tracks. Seems that the money would have been better spent on interlockings.

The Rocla concrete tie situation is depressing. (Although as Out Of Service said, the standard production rate of the TLM is one mile of ties per shift, with the track put back in service 1-2 days after the TLM is done, depending on how long a stretch of ties was put in; in early NECIP days, the TLM worked two shifts with maintenance on the third shift).

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Andrew make that 3/4 to a mile a day for the TLM
> unless they hit rock formations in the subgrade

Plus a day to cut in, a day to cut out (assuming they aren't going through a switch), a day or more to string out new rail, multiple days wleding new rail and destressing, multiple days placing ballast and surfacing, possibly some time with the undercutter running along, multiple days cutting up and salvaging the old rail, time putting in platform extensions and taking them down, etc.

When you account for the whole process from start to finish, its nowhere near the 3/4 mile production rate of the machine laying out ties. When Amtrak recently did 5 to 10 mile stretches in NJ between interlockings, like Midway to County or County to Metuchen, or Union to Elmora, it took several weeks for each segment, not days. I think they managed Metuchen to Metropark in about a month back a year or two ago.

Mgoldman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since the post and failures noted are all about
> the AEM-7's, what
> are there comments on the interlockings?
>
> I too wondered if Amtrak had some AEM-7's that
> were (will be) in
> better shape then SEPTA's current fleet (is it 2,
> or 4?).
>
> Are Sprinters an option? (Money talks, I
> suppose).
>
> As for interlockings - not very familiar with
> their operation.
> What is "wrong" with the current ones - how would
> new interlockings
> benefit? I know they will, but not being
> familiar, wondering just
> how?

Mitch:

The old Harrisburg Line interlockings are (1) in the wrong places, (2) using decrepit and prone to failure turnouts and switch machiens beyond the end of their economic and service life, (3) are ill-configured for the operation being run today, (4) located on curves, (5) have an excessive amount of turnouts and tracks compared to the number actually needed.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Why are they in such bad shape when they have been
> run far more gently than Amtrak's, which still
> storm up and down the NEC at 125MPH every day,
> with one or two rather slow round trips a day
> between a suburb and Philly ?

Amtrak had 53 AEM-7's and 15 HHP-8's (and before that E60's) to cover something like 35-40 assigned runs per day. You can see there is plenty of down time to hang out in the shop. SEPTA has 7 AEM-7's and 1 ALP-44 to cover 7 assigned runs per day. Only one is in the shop at any one time. The SEPTA ones were run hard with frequent starts and stops at 1-3 mile intervals on Paoli, West Trenton, Trenton and Wilmington trains. Also, any of them that didn't make a run on the Paoli line often deadheaded back and forth to/from Frazer for their run.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
The SEPTA ones were run hard with frequent starts and
> stops at 1-3 mile intervals on Paoli, West
> Trenton, Trenton and Wilmington trains. Also, any
> of them that didn't make a run on the Paoli line
> often deadheaded back and forth to/from Frazer for
> their run.

That doesn't ring true about SEPTA's AEM-7s being run harder than Amtrak's. SEPTA's are only used on express trains. Look at the Paoli Line. A low speed run making four stops within Philadelphia, then only five stops (plus a deadhead). Westbound trains hardly blaze into Paoli and Whitford due to crossing over or the proximity of the previous station. Top speed is 90 mph but only for a short distance at the very west end of the run. Max. number of cars is 7.

Just about any Amtrak run has more stops, more speed and more distance. Non-Keystone trains have more cars, too. SEPTA's AEM-7s only run during weekday rush hours and don't turn a wheel on Saturdays and Sundays. But whether they should be maintained better or replaced, they are currently a disgrace.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> Plus a day to cut in, a day to cut out (assuming
> they aren't going through a switch), a day or more
> to string out new rail, multiple days wleding new
> rail and destressing, multiple days placing
> ballast and surfacing, possibly some time with the
> undercutter running along, multiple days cutting
> up and salvaging the old rail, time putting in
> platform extensions and taking them down, etc.
>
> When you account for the whole process from start
> to finish, its nowhere near the 3/4 mile
> production rate of the machine laying out ties.
> When Amtrak recently did 5 to 10 mile stretches in
> NJ between interlockings, like Midway to County or
> County to Metuchen, or Union to Elmora, it took
> several weeks for each segment, not days. I think
> they managed Metuchen to Metropark in about a
> month back a year or two ago.


abyler, if you're still following this thread, I'm not clear what your criticism of the TLM operation is. Do you think they are inefficient? If so, what do you think the TLM production rate should be? I used to work with the TLS so happy to talk more about this. For one thing, it never took us a day to cut in or out. Often we would cut in at night and then do our mile of ties in one 10 hour shift. And center track production speed is different than outside tracks, of course. With outside tracks at a station you can't just block the station all day long.