Passenger Trains > Ain't New Technology Wonderful?? (Denver RTD problems)

I'm attending the NRHS convention in Denver and the convention hotel and others are near the Quebec Street crossing of the UP tracks and the new downtown to Denver Airport rapid transit University of Colorado* A Line. Twice every 15 minutes a commuter train crosses the intersection during the day with schedules changing to 30 minute headways in the evening. However, there are problems at this divided highway crossing and ten others along the route. It seems that the wireless PTC technology used to sense approaching trains and activate the crossing gates has problems, maybe electronic interference, and proper gate operation at these quiet zone crossings is not always assured. This has led to the rapid transit district (and UP) to require trains to sound their very loud horns at the crossings and further to employ two old-fashioned human gate attendants! These attendants, one on each side of the tracks like those at road construction projects, carry signs with stop and slow on the reverse, and stand on the roadway as the gates (usually) come down. The A-Line operates 22 hours a day and has twelve at-grade crossings requiring crossing guards. At this mornings RTD Fastracks seminar, the RTD speaker said the problem may continue for 3 to 4 months before a final solution resolves the problem. In the meantime at least an extra 72 persons must be hired to man the crossings day and night. Bottom line: Murphy's principles once again show themselves to be controlling even with 21st century technology!

*The A line does not travel close to the main campus of the University of Colorado in Boulder, but like sports stadiums, the name of the line was available for a price. In this case the university paid $5 million dollars for the privilege. But unlike the Broncos "Sport Authority" name, it is unlikely to disappear in bankruptcy.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/16 05:52 by Cumbresfan.

One of the crosing guards told me on Friday that the gates are controlled by the PTC system and that there were glitches early on when gates would sometimes come down and trap a vehicle (four-quadrant gates) and sometimes wouldn't come down when a train was coming.  Another crossing guard told me on Wednesday that sometimes when trains came from both directions that the gates would go up when the first train went through while the train in the other direction was approaching.
The crossing guards will remain even after the problems are fixed (if not already done) until the FRA certifies the gate operations.

photos from Wednesday 

---

---

Why in heavens name is RTD NOT using ONLY track circuits wiring for all signaling purposes  (NO wireless nonsense whatsoever ) ??????
You know traditional track circuit grade crossing activation has been PROVEN Verry successful for many decades.
I am just dumbfounded that any agency can be so stupid in this day and age.
----Daniel
 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 07/22/16 22:30 by daniel3197.

Remember, PTC will fix everything!!!  
This is one reason why we shouldn't put total trust in just one system. There needs to be redundancy.

I wonder what that crossing job pays?  Pretty boring work, and you are at the mercy of Denver's changeable weather.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, PTC will fix everything!!!  
> This is one reason why we shouldn't put total
> trust in just one system. There needs to be
> redundancy.

CS101... Backup your Backup!!!!!!!

I seem to remember stories about steam locos exploding back in the day...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, PTC will fix everything!!!  
> This is one reason why we shouldn't put total
> trust in just one system. There needs to be
> redundancy.

Amen to THAT about redundancy.
Having excellent redundancy and SAFETY needs to be TOP priority with railroading and ALL transportation modes.
 + 1 Million   if this were facepalm LOLOL !!!!
 -----Daniel



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/16 10:51 by daniel3197.

Now you're starting rumors :)

MojaveBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I seem to remember stories about steam locos
> exploding back in the day...

daniel3197 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Remember, PTC will fix everything!!!  
> > This is one reason why we shouldn't put total
> > trust in just one system. There needs to be
> > redundancy.
>
> Amen to THAT about redundancy.
> Having excellent redundancy and SAFETY needs to be
> TOP priority with railroading and ALL
> transportation modes.
>  + 1 Million   if this were facepalm LOLOL !!!!
>  -----Daniel

I see it a bit differently - seems not enough testing was done. The new normal is to sell us customers "technology" like software, where we pay to be the guinea pig for insufficiently tested products. Redundancy doesn't work too well when all the systems are buggy.

it was screwing up during testing

MojaveBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I seem to remember stories about steam locos
> exploding back in the day...

That and the Navy VLF LORAN transmissions from the Arlington antenna array interfering with the old school code line between Marysville and Stanwood (WA) and could be heard on the dispatcher phone, and the power transmission connector line at Bucoda WA that screwed up the crossing signals when it was energized, and the factory along the B&OCT Altenheim Subdivision that installed some machinery that interfered with the signals and the phone circuits. Stuff can happen even to old school technoliogy.

TAW

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Remember, PTC will fix everything!!!  
> This is one reason why we shouldn't put total
> trust in just one system. There needs to be
> redundancy.

In most cases, PTC is the redundancy.

Can someone confirm that there actually are no track circuits for the crossings?  Also, from what I have seen of the cab display units there appears to be a traditional coded track circuit system that would then have some PTC overlay components including grade crossing activation. 

BTW...the ITCS PTC system actually stops/slows the train if there is a crossing issue instead of failing unsafe.