Passenger Trains > NY - "resolving the Gordian knot which is Penn Station"

Bloomberg has an article today about the efforts to resolve the incredibly complex layering of properties around NY Penn Station. Although railfans often see it as an antiquated transportation hub with an old sports facility on top, real estate developers see it as an opportunity. Which is why several of them (Vornado, Dolan, Kushner, Silverstein, etc) have stakes in buildings which are crucial to the overall development. Vornado has been selected by Governor Cuomo to oversee the development of Moynihan station, across the street. Related Properties owns a big piece of Hudson Yards, and has rights on several critical pieces of property. Even the Rev. Sun Myung Moon has a piece of the action.

In NYC, commercial properties often have ground leases on land owned by somebody else, layered with several decks of mortgages and minority owners, each with legal rights. Air rights can be transferred to somebody else. Add in tenants with leasehold improvements in 20 year leases, and changing anything can be very painful.

Steve Roth, a prominent real estate developer and an old friend of President Trump, is heading a team looking at infrastructure needs.

https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-05-09/penn-station-chaos-confronts-one-of-trump-s-infrastructure-czars

Better build the Hudson River Tunnels soon or it all will mean nothing.

Gateway projects means new tunnels and Penn Station south, and well as a rebuilt existing station.
Cuomo with Vornado and Moynihan "station" should get lost.

The "box tunnel" which Amtrak has built under Hudson Yards could serve the Penn Station south as well as tie into the current station and the leads to the East River tunnel.

My sense is that could be a powerful incentive to a developer. Although railfans tend to overlook the subway end of this initiative, adding a half million pedestrians is an attractive retail target for this already well served long stretch from 9th to 6th avenues.

The most feasible answer is to (from west to east)) four-track the entire route east of Newark, replace Portal draw, add two more North River tunnels, enlarge Penn Station's platform area w more tracks/longer tracks (no matter what sits above it) and get ahead of issues with the East River tunnels.

Let the developers worry about developing, while the infrastructure underneath gets fixed.

Of course, that's just a commuter's POV.

Rob



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/09/17 11:40 by Robertjohndavis.

Robertjohndavis Wrote:
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> . . . enlarge Penn Station's platform area w more tracks/longer tracks (no matter what sits
> above it) . . . Let the developers worry about developing, while the infrastructure underneath gets fixed.

Unfortunately, the two things are inter-related. What you can build above depends on the track layout, and (as the developers in Denver put it), you have ONE CHANCE to get the columns for the air rights buildings in the right place. (Ultimately, the Denver folks kept the railroad open to the sky and developed buildings on the surrounding lots, where they could build as they wished immediately. Of course, air rights in NYC are much more valuable that those in Denver, and no one will want to leave that much money on the table.)

The Hudson Yards tunnel box offers the opportunity to create very long tracks and platforms just south of the current station, and still tie in with the East River tunnels. In terms of managing 11-14 car MLV trains, and 16 car Amtrak trains of the future, that's not an insignificant benefit. But it does call into question the need for "Moynihan station" which essentially is another escalator onto today's hard pressed platforms from a new shopping mall.

I believe the building which houses or housed WNET public TV is up for grabs, too. That's at the 11th avenue end of the project. In NY real estate, being able to assemble a complete block, or adjacent blocks, is a holy grail. The air rights, the ability to create multiple structures, etc go a long way toward making things happen. Running some LIRR trains through West Side yard to Penn West at 12th avenue could be attractive from a transportation and political stand point.

The box tunnel offers interesting options for the station. I'm all for it IF there is a simultaneous effort to rebuild the railroad west of it. One without the other is useless.

Posted from iPhone

It really is a problem that needs to be addressed now. Nothing about new tunnels or increasing track capacity is going to get cheaper. There is no drop off in passenger volume in site, I would only think more in the future. It's a lot of money but it's lot of bang for the buck.

Jim

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> The Hudson Yards tunnel box offers the opportunity
> to create very long tracks and platforms just
> south of the current station, and still tie in
> with the East River tunnels. In terms of managing
> 11-14 car MLV trains, and 16 car Amtrak trains of
> the future, that's not an insignificant benefit.
> But it does call into question the need for
> "Moynihan station" which essentially is another
> escalator onto today's hard pressed platforms from
> a new shopping mall.
>
> I believe the building which houses or housed WNET
> public TV is up for grabs, too. That's at the 11th
> avenue end of the project. In NY real estate,
> being able to assemble a complete block, or
> adjacent blocks, is a holy grail. The air rights,
> the ability to create multiple structures, etc go
> a long way toward making things happen. Running
> some LIRR trains through West Side yard to Penn
> West at 12th avenue could be attractive from a
> transportation and political stand point.

Frankly, I don't know why the LIRR has not developed a "West Side Yard Station Stop." It would serve 10th through 12th Ave. very well.

The #7 train goes to 34th between 10th and 11th.

LIRR has an employee island platform in their yard. The rest is all tracks.

Posted from Android

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> The #7 train goes to 34th between 10th and 11th.
>
> LIRR has an employee island platform in their
> yard. The rest is all tracks.
>
> Posted from Android

It's a 4-block walk to get the #7 at 11th Ave. And to get there, it runs under 42nd. St., not 34th. Very poor connectivity.

Long four blocks from the current Penn station out to the new 7 station.

Bloomberg and the developers (see first post) decided that area needed better transportation to make that area more valuable. So everyone pitched in and made it happen.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/17 09:10 by Lackawanna484.

There is zero chance LIRR will run revenue service to West Side Yard at 11th Avenue, which has all of 1 platform. Take the M34 bus.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/17 07:47 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> There is zero chance LIRR will run revenue service
> to West Side Yard at 11th Avenue, which has all of
> 1 platform. Take the M34 bus.


How convenient. Especially with luggage at 5 PM. I'll do Uber, thanks.

sums007 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There is zero chance LIRR will run revenue
> service
> > to West Side Yard at 11th Avenue, which has all
> of
> > 1 platform. Take the M34 bus.
>
>
> How convenient. Especially with luggage at 5 PM.
> I'll do Uber, thanks.

That will be one looooong Uber ride at 5pm though LOL!

Once upon a time during the proposal vetting of ARC there was a proposal of extending the 7 from Javits Center to 30th/31St 7/8 Ave. That was rejected and the tailtracks of 7 preclude that now.

Frankly, one of the problems that ARC had still remains a problem with Gateway. There really is no plan for dispersing the significant additional number of of people that will descend upon Penn Station when the proposed additions are completed. It will be one spectacular mess of a transfer from trains to ground transports of any sort.

What needs to happen is to divert significant traffic away from Penn Station, or build more subway capacity around Penn Station. The #7 to Secaucus achieves the traffic diversion. There are no current proposals to enhance dispersal capacity around Penn Station, and we merrily keep chugging along.

Going back 125 years and stealing the rail bridge from Hoboken idea...

My preferred solution for NJ is a 6-8 track bridge from landing at an above ground terminal around 30th Street (think of how many of London's stations are right at - or close to - a Themes crossing.)

A little eminent domain, some air rights and voila!

Leave Penn Station for Amtrak and the LIRR, build the Jersey terminal next door - above ground.

Or not. ;-)

Posted from iPhone

Those Planner and railfan types with intense "one seat ride" disease, hooked on central rail (and bus) terminals, do not understand local dispersal.

If it were up to me, I'd build a rapid transit el along 34th Street, 2nd to 11 Av, with tracks either centered, supported by pillars down the median of the street, or along each sidewalk. With modern acoustics, it could be quiet. 42nd Street has 2 subways, 34th has none.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/17 09:45 by joemvcnj.