Passenger Trains > Draft EIS for new Hudson River tunnels released

The Draft Environmental Impact Statement for a new Hudson River tunnel was just released by NJDOT and the FRA. The preferred alternative alignment is shown in the map available here:

http://www.hudsontunnelproject.com/documents/2017-04-05_Preferred_Alternative_Figure..pdf

Of course, there's no lead agency or funding to actually build the thing yet, but the EIS has to be completed before that agency could do anything, anyway. Estimated cost is $12.8 billion, including rehab of the existing North River tunnels constructed by the Pennsylvania Railroad in 1904-08. The DEIS and other project information is available from the main webpage, hudsontunnelproject.com.

Note that this project does nothing to increase capacity at Penn Station New York or across the Hackensack River (Portal movable bridge) - those issues remain to be addressed by other projects.

I wonder how much the original tunnels cost in today's dollars? And how many environmental study's they conducted before construction began? In a book about the construction of the original Penn Station, a giant bridge was once proposed. Would that be a better and cheaper option? China has built some pretty lengthy railway bridges.

I'm trying to visualize what the descent from a cross-harbor bridge into Penn Station would look like.

The following is from an MTA press release making the 100th anniversary of the tunnels:

"The cost for what was officially called "The New York Tunnel Extension of the Pennsylvania Railroad" was approximately $114-million. This included Pennsylvania Station, the East River and North River (Hudson) Tunnels, and the Sunnyside Yard. The cost in 2010 dollars would be approximately $2.5 to $3-billion."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/08/17 05:00 by SpeederDriver.

SpeederDriver Wrote:
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> "The cost for what was officially called "The New
> York Tunnel Extension of the Pennsylvania
> Railroad" was approximately $114-million. This
> included Pennsylvania Station, the East River and
> North River (Hudson) Tunnels, and the Sunnyside
> Yard. The cost in 2010 dollars would be
> approximately $2.5 to $3-billion."

Incorrect.

That price quote uses consumer price statistics to inflate the PRR cost. The correct method would use the ENR construction cost index, which has seen a significantly higher rise than consumer prices. Example, PATCO built in 1969 cost $94 million. The similar length Denver Gold Line cost $1.03 billion, 11x more.

Price increases from 1910 to 1969 would have been of a greater magnitude. The Boston Blue Line cost $7.3 million to build and electrify at same period as Penn Station and is a similar magnitude project to PATCO, implying a factor of 13x in costs. This gives a total value of 143x for construction inflation from 1910 to present.

That would make the cost of the 6 tunnels, Sunnyside, and Penn Station $16.5 billion today. This is appropriately more expensive than the current cost of the smaller East Side Access project.

Land value increases in NYC are ignored in these figures.

Posted from iPhone

For the same amount to running a new tunnel for the C train from W4th to Lackawanna station in Hoboken would give you a huge bang for your buck. Tie in with the current C and A trains and take a lot of pressure off PATH

SpeederDriver Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm trying to visualize what the descent from a
> cross-harbor bridge into Penn Station would look like.

I bet they'd elevate the whole thing straight across Manhattan and the East River.

< For the same amount to running a new tunnel for the C train from W4th to Lackawanna station in Hoboken would give you a huge bang for your buck. Tie in with the current C and A trains and take a lot of pressure off PATH >

Just send the L train over there.
Extend the C over the GWB lower level to Fort Lee. That's what the lower level was built for anyway. It didn't open for road traffic until 1964, per Robert Moses.

Use the Erie ROW thru the Bergen Arches then bridge the Hudson and go up the west side of NYC. Done!

elu34ch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Use the Erie ROW thru the Bergen Arches then
> bridge the Hudson and go up the west side of NYC.
> Done!

The "bridge the Hudson" part could get tricky...

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elu34ch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Use the Erie ROW thru the Bergen Arches then bridge the Hudson and go up the west side of NYC. Done!
>
> The "bridge the Hudson" part could get tricky...

Not sure why? Suspension bridges been around for a couple of weeks now. Start the ramp at the end of the arches and angle over Holland tunnel portal. Use old DLW yard as western anchor and then above west side highway to NYP



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/09/17 08:04 by elu34ch.

elu34ch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > elu34ch Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Use the Erie ROW thru the Bergen Arches then
> bridge the Hudson and go up the west side of NYC.
> Done!
> >
> > The "bridge the Hudson" part could get
> tricky...
>
> Not sure why? Suspension bridges been around for a
> couple of weeks now. Start the ramp at the end of
> the arches and angle over Holland tunnel portal.
> Use old DLW yard as western anchor and then above
> west side highway to NYP

The condo conversions and abundant new construction down along the West Side have been predicated on their views of New Jersey. Building a bridge sufficient to clear the cruise ships which pass this point would require a structure hundreds of feet in the air, and miles of approach on both sides.

For the benefit of NEW JERSEY.

Donald Trump bought the rail yards along 72nd street, and it took him with all his connections 25 years to finally get approval to build his luxury development which cut off the views of middle income people. Cutting off the views of rich folks, very rich folks, would be significantly more difficult.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> elu34ch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > elu34ch Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > Use the Erie ROW thru the Bergen Arches
> then
> > bridge the Hudson and go up the west side of
> NYC.
> > Done!
> > >
> > > The "bridge the Hudson" part could get
> > tricky...
> >
> > Not sure why? Suspension bridges been around for a couple of weeks now. Start the ramp at the end
> of the arches and angle over Holland tunnel portal. Use old DLW yard as western anchor and then
> above west side highway to NYP
>
> The condo conversions and abundant new construction down along the West Side have been
> predicated on their views of New Jersey. Building a bridge sufficient to clear the cruise ships
> which pass this point would require a structure hundreds of feet in the air, and miles of approach
> on both sides.
>
> For the benefit of NEW JERSEY.
>
> Donald Trump bought the rail yards along 72nd street, and it took him with all his connections
> 25 years to finally get approval to build his luxury development which cut off the views of
> middle income people. Cutting off the views of rich folks, very rich folks, would be
> significantly more difficult.

You are certainly correct about riverfront property values. Screw em. Eminent domain and full speed ahead. And if the bridge design was worthy of NY harbor it would be a tourist attraction.