Passenger Trains > Why have Sleepers Stagnated?

Another year will shortly pass by with no new Viewliner II sleepers from the mid-2010 order, seemingly the least cost way to improve the financial results on eastern long distance routes. Is their introduction such a low priority behind the typical NEC infrastructure list due to their costing being misunderstood , a USDOT policy decision, or even an accessible design question?

http://www.cafusa.com/en/productos-servicios/proyectos/proyecto-detalle.php?p=189

By this author’s analysis they should produce net revenue of $2-3 per mile above capital and operating costs, that could be used to cover other existing route costs like food service or train operations.

Amtrak’s costing has always been a mess, but some blame may fall on the institutional aversion to sleepers in the USDOT’s methodology of defining the benefits of time savings. The original guess values were tied to wage rates only as a means to differentiate between two highway alignments, not figure out a travelers complete set of priorities, yet they persist. These still guard access to the pool of money created by taxing the use of locally supported streets and leveraging the funds to highways. But nothing saves travel time like sleep and when considering waking time the combination often beats even a connecting airline trip, particularly when getting to the hotel is figured in to the mix.

https://www.transportation.gov/office-policy/transportation-policy/revised-departmental-guidance-valuation-travel-time-economic

Some rail and highway advocates continue to suggest sleepers are a throwback to the past, either for supposedly diverting focus from “true high-speed rail corridors” or as a wasteful use of funds that should go for “critical” highway projects. This may cloud the message as it seems even NARP focuses now only of the long-distance route and not so much on the amenities provided onboard for actual travelers. It could be also that the Council of Economic advisors and OMB, long a foe of Amtrak, does not like these new equipment purchases, but this loss of focus was also present in the last Administration.

https://www.narprail.org/site/assets/files/5119/dismantling_a_national_transportation_network.pdf

But moving the needle in the next 5 or even 30 years on public service, accessibility, and financial improvement still hinges on improving onboard amenities, with sleepers representing a neglected leg of service offerings. Anything beyond Level II automobile automation is going to be challenging. The traveler still prefers to leave in the late afternoon and arrive in the mid-morning, airlines know this and peak price accordingly or limit outright service from smaller airports in the peaks.

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/PR20170912.aspx

Against this paralysis that the US eastern network seems to be stuck in, consider two overnight sleeper offerings elsewhere, in places where corridors certainly exist and highway infrastructure is well funded.

OBB Nightjet
Austria’s OBB took over from DB’s CityNightLine remnants and it appears that DB tried to hide improvements to continue to push the routes out. However, OBB is investing in new sleepers with much improved ammenities, supposing that this will create a package of travel options to draw travelers in to both daytime and nighttime services. The new interiors include bedrooms with full restrooms and a novel day-night convertible private single berth arrangement.

https://www.oebb.at/en/news/nightjet-der-zukunft

http://www.priestmangoode.com/project/new-intercity-and-nightjet/

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/financial/db-overnight-services-profitability-increases-prior-to-withdrawal.html

https://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/en/pressemitteilung/no-hindrances-to-the-austrian-night-train-service/

Caledonian Sleeper
Under a franchise model won by Serco, new cars are being built by CAF in much less time than the Amtrak order, coming into service in 2018 with financial backing by the national rail agency for the long rail car life. They are using an existing single level car platform for the carbody. Here as well there is a focus on bedroom interiors with full restrooms and sleeper pod seats.

http://newtrains.sleeper.scot/

https://www.serco.com/news/media-releases/2017/new-caledonian-sleeper-trains-first-look

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/aug/30/caledonian-sleeper-train-double-beds-revamp-scotland-london



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/17 14:17 by District.

I don't think it is an issue of sleeper sales, as in capacity exceeding demand, but rather, CAF and Amtrak are not jointly pushing to get the Viewliner II order complete. Not sure how relevant European train market (even sleeper component) is to US market, as funding approach and basic utility are not necessarily in alignment. 

Good articles....

While funding of European trains is vastly different than U.S., the marketing and sales of sleeping cars simply cannot be so much different. You are selling a comfortable way to travel to another city. Some folks will want to minimize time on the train, while others will be more leisurely. Either case, price, amenities in the room, timekeeping, comfort, etc. are important. Also food/beverage options.

I know a person who regularly uses the City of New Orleans between Jackson, MS and Chicago. The schedule is attractive; basically overnight; dining car is available; timekeeping is usually pretty good; price for a roomette is competitive with any airline competition. This person goes to Chicago on business for the day. Returns usually the same day going south. No airline hassles; relaxing trip; some time to work on the train southbound. This person avoids flying through Memphis or some other connecting city; avoids hotel costs; arrives in downtown Chicago and can walk or cab quickly to their business. This person works in downtown Jackson and thus can get to that train station very quickly.

Amtrak has many many similar city pairs that could be marketed to a public looking for an easy way to travel. The Viewliner 2 sleepers or Superliners offer such possibilities, but sharp trained courteous employees is an absolutely MUST!

Sleepers are essentially obsolete. They continue to hang on in niche markets.

For most people, it is much more attractive to get to where you're going and sleep in a hotel bed. This means a flight, or alternatively, a fast day train.

My recent trip on the Lisbon-Madrid service in October was nothing special. The food service was minimal...a tough cut of steak was offered in the cafe car with a few vegetables thrown in. Ridership was adequate, if not fantastic. The best accommodation on the train was cramped and the water temperature in the shower unreliable. The typical European traveling between larger cities would prefer the low-cost airline, I think.

We'll see how the Austrians do with the service they assumed. I wish them luck.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/21/17 16:32 by reindeerflame.

jp1822 Wrote:
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> I don't think it is an issue of sleeper sales, as
> in capacity exceeding demand, but rather, CAF and
> Amtrak are not jointly pushing to get the
> Viewliner II order complete.

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Or is it that Amtrak is not pushing CAF to get the Viewliner II order complete?

Could part of the problem be with the political fascination with total passenger carried instead of things like revenue per train or per passenger?

The OBB network is an interesting comparison, even the new rolling stock proposed seems to have the Viewliner upper windows. Here is an interesting viewpoint from a general media outlet and one from the Financial Times.

https://www.politico.eu/article/austrian-railways-spies-night-train-opportunity-deutsche-bahn-germany-timetable-change/

https://www.ft.com/content/9795163e-8c6e-11e6-8cb7-e7ada1d123b1

If one thinks about it there are only maybe three US city group pairs where sleepers really are at their best on single night out routes.

For those in the know politically, why has there been no movement on getting the Viewliners II out there? The net improvement is not much, maybe $12 million a year for the whole fleet, but that is money.

The issue doesn't seem to be the funding as much as getting existing orders completed in a timely fashion. Somehow they managed to get the completely baggage cars out, even though they should have been the last thing delivered as they are of little benefit to passengers. As for European sleepers, they are to me much preferred to an additional expensive hotel night. After the days activities, I can take a sleeper say from Edinburgh to Paddington, get off the train in the morning, take the Heathrow Express direct to the airport and be in the air, thus saving a day of travel as most flights back to the States depart Europe in the morning.

Whether it was intentional, or merely an oversight, it's interesting that Anderson did NOT mention the Viewliner sleeper order in his overview of Amtrak equipment issues at the NARP, er "RPA" convention.

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA

to the question of WHY:

1. time constraints: less people want to spend days on a train when it is quicker to fly.

2. cost: usually more expensive than vehicles and airplanes.

when you spend big dollars $$ and a few days on a sleeper, i wonder how many rude employees have turned some people into "never agains".......

66

Sleepers have a political perception that government money is being used for land-cruises by the wealthy and a few railfans. That's a tough perception to explain away, even if you can produce statistics that sleepers generate profit.

I see the LD train slowly fading. When Superliners and Amfleet II reach end-of-life, it's difficult imagining a new purchase of LD coaches to replace them. More likely you will see a shift to day-only trains operating in corridors. No sleepers and diners in that scenario, and different requirements for the coaches.

Replacing baggage cars made sense to the extent it allowed an increase in LD train speeds on the NEC. Some of the old ones were limited to 90 mph.

reindeerflame Wrote:
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> Sleepers are essentially obsolete.

Try booking an Amtrak sleeper almost anytime, year around, and see just how obsolete the demand is for space.

And try visiting the Amtrak Metropolitan Lounge in Chicago Union Station prior to boarding of first class passengers for the four big western overnighters. Even the new enlarged facility is packed, wall to wall.

Art House

I too have wondered about the plan for the eastern trains and realistic options to shake the land-cruise moniker. Breaking the routes into corridors will cost more money, but I sense if it suits the preconceptions in DC then nobody will question the extra cost.

If you look at the commentary by IRJ on situation prior to the OBB assumption, one can see that there seemed to be a decision made to downgrade the service under DB and not invest in new equipment even though demand was there, almost a mirror to the US. They used to have the excellent Talgo sleepers but decided to stop running them, they cut food offerings, and finally were not assigning coach commuter revenue.

Is there a way for a group not associated with Amtrak to put together a RFP to finance a renewal of long distance rolling stock and operations? To work, it needs a scope like that for the Caledonian Sleepers. Here is the direct link to the franchise agreement, with drawings on page 198:

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39429/franchise-agreement-caledonian-sleeper-23-may-2014-redacted.pdf

Such a scope would have to be taken up by Amtrak as their own idea, but there seems to be little possibility that they would initiate under the current environment. Such an operation would likely need to run under Amtrak’s banner in reservations and granted access to line haul and daily inspection by means of a clearing account, but would need to have free rein to design equipment. However, it would require the loan to be backed by a portion of at risk capital leveraging RRIF monies to avoid political interference either way.

For discussion I have attached below this author’s estimate of incremental cost both as currently operated and with improvements in operations and daily turns. Even the existing somewhat inefficient turns represent an incremental cost of $3.5 a car mile, with the incremental cost being about half the room-mile fares charged. Yes there are still food costs but adding volume helps those rates.

Adding improved sleepers with more bedrooms with full bathrooms to existing trains cost little extra with much greater net revenue upside.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/17 09:58 by District.

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How much does adding a full bathroom to each bedroom cost in construction and ongoing maintenance? And reduced room capacity?

Posted from Android

Once upon a time......back in the Warrington years.......Amtrak proposed operating a luxury passenger train coast to coast. I am not sure how much "development and planning" went into the concept of the train, but it would be interesting to know if the financials called for a break-even to profit on said train. Course Amtrak cost allocations are more to be desired, but curious nonetheless. It was also one of the first things to be scrapped off the Network Growth Strategy Plan!!! A private operator is never going to be able to break even with such a service as long as it requires Amtrak to be involved (and said fees that Amtrak charges). We just saw this play out on the City of New Orleans with Pullman Rail Joirneys. 

Spanish overnight Talgo service was never meant to be elegant...when i rode Lisbon-Madrid last January i brought snacks and a bottle of Port... i slept great

Madrid had more attractive flight options returning to the US than TAP, MAD-ORD direct versus changing on the east coast to a smaller plane.

Adam

The Pullman Rail Journeys on the City of New Orleans was an unusual opportunity to look at demand / costs, etc.

I hope Amtrak examined that very closely.

Posted from Android

I believe the cross country run was waiting on express and Colorado Railcar. The PRJ outcome of late is depressing to this author (who was not involved), as now Amtrak has none of the haulage revenue, but as far as I can tell nobody cares in DC unless it makes them look bad.

That is why something would have to be under Amtrak's flag, but with equipment design independent. Modern JETS toilet units are not that expensive per car, many European motorcoaches use them, maybe $0.10 per car mile for the entire system. Once the scheme is out of paying Amtrak's retail fees, it could pay for equipment, but keeping independence is harder. The direct link to ScotRails's Caledonian Sleeper franchise agreement is below along with images of the new equipment ordered within the agreement (which is owned by a leasing company as is common in the UK).

https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/39429/franchise-agreement-caledonian-sleeper-23-may-2014-redacted.pdf



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/17 10:12 by District.

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Lackawanna484 Wrote:
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> The Pullman Rail Journeys on the City of New
> Orleans was an unusual opportunity to look at
> demand / costs, etc.
>
> I hope Amtrak examined that very closely.
>
> Posted from Android

The fact the service was dropped should provide substantial reason to rethink luxury rail service as was offered on the City of NOL and other past ventures. Virtually every Luxury private rail service offered over the years since Amtrak has failed in the USA. (Not talking about private charters) It think the reason for the success of the Canadian tour trains has to do with the scenery offered and the fact these trains cover their distances only in daylight and passenger are accommodated on hotels for the overnight stay.

Regular, or even semi-regular services like the PRJ provides on the City, are doomed from the start and anyone considering starting or financing such a venture should consider any funds invested as lost capital which in the end will probably only be useful as a tax write-off.

Look folks, most people cannot afford the substantial prices for luxury overnight travel, and further, while the haze of nostalgia and memories can certainly attract the interest of those who may want to ride, once they see the pricing necessary to operate these services, the haze quickly lifts to reveal the reality of dollars and cents.

Great! But where is the money going to come from? Please don't go down the gas tax rabbit hole.