Passenger Trains > CSX maintainers had been working at Amtrak wreck site

As intimated by Totallamer, back on Page 4 of the Amtrak 91(3) wreck thread...

Starting a new thread so non-subscribers can read:


Source: CSX maintainers had been working at site of Sunday's deadly train accident

Jacksonville Business Journal
Feb. 4, 2018

> CSX Corp. signal maintainers recently had been working in the area
> where a deadly Amtrak crash happened early Sunday morning, according
> to a source familiar with the railroad's operations.
>
> Amtrak 91 struck a CSX freight train around 2:35 a.m. near Columbia,
> SC. The incident killed two and injured 70, according to the
> Lexington County Sheriff's Office, and the CSX train has leaked
> thousands of gallons of diesel fuel.
>
> The CSX train was sitting on a side line known as the industry line,
> according to a source familiar with the matter. A switch that was
> supposed to send the Amtrak train down the cleared main line was not
> in the proper position and sent it down the industry line instead,
> the source said.
>
> Typically, an automatic signal would have warned that the switch was
> in the wrong position, instructing the engineer to slow down.
> However, a crew had recently been working on the system in that area,
> and it may have been shut off when the incident occurred, the source
> said...

https://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2018/02/04/source-csx-maintainers-had-been-working-at-site-of.html

Signal suspension was in place at the time.

Posted from iPhone

Would a signal suspension require operating at a reduced speed?

Baltimore

Wow...yikes...


farmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Signal suspension was in place at the time.
>
> Posted from iPhone

baltimore Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would a signal suspension require operating at a
> reduced speed?
>
> Baltimore


Yes. Signal Suspension would require Amtrak to be running at (at most) the maximum speed for non-signaled territory. Assuming the track speed was at least that high of course. If you're running through say a 40mph restricted curve, it wouldn't make a difference because both signaled top speed and non-signaled top speed are higher than that.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/18 08:17 by Totallamer.

Totallamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> Yes. Signal Suspension would require Amtrak to be
> running at (at most) the maximum speed for
> non-signaled territory. Assuming the track speed
> was at least that high of course. If you're
> running through say a 40mph restricted curve, it
> wouldn't make a difference because both signaled
> top speed and non-signaled top speed are higher
> than that.

Not familiar with CSX/Amtrak procedures back east, what would “max speed for non-signaled territory” be out there? 59P/49F?

Mr. MRL

MrMRL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Totallamer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Yes. Signal Suspension would require Amtrak to
> be
> > running at (at most) the maximum speed for
> > non-signaled territory. Assuming the track
> speed
> > was at least that high of course. If you're
> > running through say a 40mph restricted curve,
> it
> > wouldn't make a difference because both
> signaled
> > top speed and non-signaled top speed are higher
> > than that.
>
> Not familiar with CSX/Amtrak procedures back east,
> what would “max speed for non-signaled
> territory” be out there? 59P/49F?
>
> Mr. MRL


I'm not honestly sure because any dark territory where I run has track speeds lower than that.

So signal maintainers or train crew could have left the switch open. Or the switch could have been out of adjustment and gapped. Or something else.

In dark territory all trains must approach any facing point switch prepared to stop until it can be seen the switch is lined for their route. If crews commonly work in dark territory they know that. If dark territory pops up thiz requirement may not come up in a job briefing. Anyone using a switch in dark territory is required to report the condition of all switches to the dispatcher when they clear their authority.

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In dark territory all trains must approach any
> facing point switch prepared to stop until it can
> be seen the switch is lined for their route.

What?

This is not correct at all.

MrMRL Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Totallamer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> >
> >
> > Yes. Signal Suspension would require Amtrak to be running at (at most) the maximum speed for non-signaled territory.
>
> Not familiar with CSX/Amtrak procedures back east, what would “max speed for non-signaled territory” be out there? 59P/49F?
>
> Mr. MRL

On NEC, there is (normally) no non-signaled territory, but under NORAC rules, locomotives with enroute cab signal, speed control or ATS failures are restricted to 40 MPH unless the dispatcher specifically authorizes 79MPH.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/18 08:38 by hazegray.

Totallamer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> fbe Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In dark territory all trains must approach any
> > facing point switch prepared to stop until it
> can
> > be seen the switch is lined for their route.
>
> What?
>
> This is not correct at all.

This is indeed the case where I work, but this is per general order.

KWH49 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Totallamer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > fbe Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > In dark territory all trains must approach
> any
> > > facing point switch prepared to stop until it
> > can
> > > be seen the switch is lined for their route.
> >
> > What?
> >
> > This is not correct at all.
>
> This is indeed the case where I work, but this is
> per general order.

Well it's definitely not the case on CSX. You do of course have to report switches back to the dispatcher when giving up your EC-1 (track warrant). When first getting your EC-1, you have to get permission on any switches you need to handle. Then when you handle them you have to record time initially reversed and time when restored normal for the last time on a Switch Position Awareness Form. Then when you give the EC-1 back to the dispatcher you have to give him your switch times.

Totallamer Wrote:

> Well it's definitely not the case on CSX. You do
> of course have to report switches back to the
> dispatcher when giving up your EC-1 (track
> warrant). When first getting your EC-1, you have
> to get permission on any switches you need to
> handle. Then when you handle them you have to
> record time initially reversed and time when
> restored normal for the last time on a Switch
> Position Awareness Form. Then when you give the
> EC-1 back to the dispatcher you have to give him
> your switch times.

This is good information. Will be interested to see how it plays into the investigation.

(Should have added that on my line, it's all dark with hand-thrown switches and 20 mph maximum authorized speed.)

Totallamer

Come run MRL's dark 10th sub in dark territory, you are fired.


Why do you think switch targets on hand throw switches suddenly got so huge all of a sudden? The problem here is normally signalled track quickly became dark track and it is likely no railroad supervisors took the time to explain the nuances to crews with no experience in operating dark territory.

The rule about being prepared to stop for facing point switches came about account the number of trains diverted into sidings occupied by trains by switches not lined back to the main and resulting injuries and fatalities.

farmer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Signal suspension was in place at the time.
>
> Posted from iPhone

. . . and, presumably, PTC, even if it had been fully-operational in the area and all locomotives equipped, would have also been suspended.

Gordon

TWC (former DTC) territory with hand-throws where I work. Track speed if you have directional authority. Exception is if you have a Box 9 checked (Protect against open switch at ___). Pretty much the same as Totallamer describes above. No way we could get a train over 350 miles in 12 if we had to approach every switch prepared to stop.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/04/18 09:11 by trainjunkie.

Sadly, Graniteville SC (about 60 mi away) was the scene of a similar tragedy 13 years ago. It helped start the call for PTC but the railroads have drug their feet on the technology.

gbmott Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> farmer Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Signal suspension was in place at the time.
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> . . . and, presumably, PTC, even if it had been
> fully-operational in the area and all locomotives
> equipped, would have also been suspended.
>
> Gordon


Presumably PTC-compliant signals were in the process of being cut-over after installation... or at least that's what most Signal Suspensions are for these days.

fbe Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Totallamer
>
> Come run MRL's dark 10th sub in dark territory,
> you are fired.
>
>
> Why do you think switch targets on hand throw
> switches suddenly got so huge all of a sudden? The
> problem here is normally signalled track quickly
> became dark track and it is likely no railroad
> supervisors took the time to explain the nuances
> to crews with no experience in operating dark
> territory.
>
> The rule about being prepared to stop for facing
> point switches came about account the number of
> trains diverted into sidings occupied by trains by
> switches not lined back to the main and resulting
> injuries and fatalities.


Switch targets in dark territory haven't gotten huge. They've always been high-stand switches with targets of a fair size.