Passenger Trains > PTC a real LDT threat

Based upon CEO Anderson's just completed Congressional testimony Amtrak will not operate any train over any non PTC compliant trackage effective Jan.1,2019.

I believe there will be lots of pieces of non compliant trackage come next Jan. 1st. over which Amtrak operates ( Cardinal, City of NO, Southwest Chief) and unless Amtrak amends its policy as spelled out clearly today by its CEO lots of LDT's will cease operation next New Years day??

IMHO-Ross Rowland



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/18 08:02 by co614.

Appreciate your input on this latest Amtrak decision. I can understand Amtrak's efforts to promote a safe operating environment for its patrons. We'll have to see what develops late 2018 and early 2019.

June 5, 2106 Amtrak 156 Phase I with Siemens ACS-64 and the Joe Boardman cars tacked on the rear of Amtrak train 6, the California Zephyr near Hot Sulphur Springs, CO, on UP's Moffat Tunnel line.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/18 07:11 by cozephyr.

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I guess I don't understand why it's going to be any less safe after Jan. 1, 2019 than it is now.


Andy

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4488288

This sounds like a win-win for all parties who want LDT’s to go the way of the dodo. Amtrak looks good because they are playing the safety card. The railroads look good because they’ve been pretty vocal (and by posts on this board, also pretty accurate) in saying that the tech can’t be ready in time. Congress looks good because they made the (unfounded) safety mandate but will get out of giving Amtrak more funds since less trains will be running. Only the LDT passengers and employees lose. I’m the end the NEC will remain, which will please all the “winners” just fine.

After not running even a few trains for a while, they won’t come back (like the one that stopped running after Katrina but never came back). Once a few are gone, it will be easier to marginalize the rest, cut back on resources (less trains) until the spiral is complete.

Posted from iPhone

Jared Hamilton
Scott Depot, WV

ANd the Freeways are really safer than our passenger trains ???
sheesh !!!
---Daniel

Take 23 states off the Amtrak map, and the Congress will not want to give Amtrak anything, especially the NEC, an 8 state system.

So are we to all just sit back and do nothing about this situation? Are we to become an even worse than a 3rd world country with transportation to many rural areas? Everyone here on T.O. had better wake up and fight this with letters, telegrams, e-mails, etc. to your representatives in Washington, D.C. NOW to let them know that you do NOT want to see fewer passenger trains in our country. No matter what, we continue to need a balanced transportation network in the U.S.A. which should include properly funded Amtrak Passenger Trains. Now is the time to act. We cannot sit back and assume that others will take action.
John a/k/a Clubcar

The Crescent Route is Safe from PTC. I am thinking about going to NOL, LA in 2019. Is route safe for PTC??

While service suspension is a possibility, it is much more likely that waivers will be granted or further delays will be written into the law.

The PTC issue does provide a convenient reason to suspend/reduce service, perhaps in an effort to rationalize the LDT system into something smaller than exists today.

chessie2101 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This sounds like a win-win for all parties who
> want LDT’s to go the way of the dodo. Amtrak
> looks good because they are playing the safety
> card. The railroads look good because they’ve
> been pretty vocal (and by posts on this board,
> also pretty accurate) in saying that the tech
> can’t be ready in time. Congress looks good
> because they made the (unfounded) safety mandate
> but will get out of giving Amtrak more funds since
> less trains will be running. Only the LDT
> passengers and employees lose. I’m the end the
> NEC will remain, which will please all the
> “winners” just fine.

This is my worry as well. It seems this is an opportunity for Amtrak to get rid of the National Network at long last and be able to excuse it by blaming the freight railroads. It's the post-Katrina playbook, now being used on a massive scale. For as long as I can remember the National Network has been under continuous threat, but nothing ever came of it. I fear this may indeed be the end of the road as Congress, the Administration, the railroads, and -- it would seem -- even Amtrak itself wants rid of the LDTs.

-- eliyahu

Though Mr. Anderson grew up with a father who worked for a railroad, I would imagine that he is pretty shocked that the Cascades and the Silver Star accident could happen. My guess is that he is not looking for waivers but for a fail-safe system.

Could some LDTs get cut because only a few miles in their route are non-compliant?

Hmmm, how about if Congress mandates that only automobiles that are self-driving be allowed on the highways? The roads would be a whole lot safer. And those folks who don't own a self-driving automobile or who happen to live on a road where a self-driving automobile won't work, well, they'll just have to get over it . . .



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/18 09:06 by WW.

My WAG is that Mr. Anderson will opt for safety and refuse to operate on any trackage that is not fully compliant ( fully operational PTC) by 12/31/18 as if he were to operate on trackage that was not fully operational and an accident happened he'd have no defense against all those who would scream " you shouldn't have run on " unsafe" track". Just my guess. Time will tell.

IMHO-Ross Rowland

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Take 23 states off the Amtrak map, and the
> Congress will not want to give Amtrak anything,
> especially the NEC, an 8 state system.

This is Amtrak's "secret sauce".

No one, including the the president of Amtrak, can take away the last train from scores of House districts (and even some entire states). Republican Presidents and Congressmen have been trying for 47 years, and every effort is dead before it starts.

That's why the Amtrak LD network survives AND that is why it is in such a sorry state. It simply needs to survive, not flourish or prosper.

What I see wrong with this is that everyone thinks PTC will solve all these problems. CSX installed PTC on the Philadelphia Subdivision last summer. This is a main track route that lost it's scheduled passenger trains in 1958. Maximum freight train speed is 50 mph but less than that over abut a third of the route. It has CTC with new LED signals, the old CPL's are gone. What I have heard is that PTC has to be cut out when a train is switching. It cannot handle the back and forth movements thru interlockings. Here at Wilsmere two or three trains set-off or pick-up every day, with cuts up to 150 cars. This means a train with the PTC cut out is stretched out a mile or more on single track often for an hour or more. Now, if a train coming the other direction fails to heed signals will it's PTC recognize a train with its PTC cut out and prevent an accident? In addition to this on a line with only 14-18 trains a day, and I do not listen to all of them, hardly a day goes by where there is not some problem with PTC and trains are authorized to run without it. And when I listen to radio feeds that include Amtrak it seems they are constantly having issues with their form of PTC.

Amtrak is trying to place blame for non PTC lines on freight railroads while at the same time they already run over countless miles of PTC equipped lines and don’t have PTC running on there equipment. They are what you would call a hypocrite.

JLinDE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I see wrong with this is that everyone thinks
> PTC will solve all these problems. CSX installed
> PTC on the Philadelphia Subdivision last summer.
> This is a main track route that lost it's
> scheduled passenger trains in 1958. Maximum
> freight train speed is 50 mph but less than that
> over abut a third of the route. It has CTC with
> new LED signals, the old CPL's are gone. What I
> have heard is that PTC has to be cut out when a
> train is switching. It cannot handle the back and
> forth movements thru interlockings. Here at
> Wilsmere two or three trains set-off or pick-up
> every day, with cuts up to 150 cars. This means a
> train with the PTC cut out is stretched out a mile
> or more on single track often for an hour or more.
> Now, if a train coming the other direction fails
> to heed signals will it's PTC recognize a train
> with its PTC cut out and prevent an accident? In
> addition to this on a line with only 14-18 trains
> a day, and I do not listen to all of them, hardly
> a day goes by where there is not some problem with
> PTC and trains are authorized to run without it.
> And when I listen to radio feeds that include
> Amtrak it seems they are constantly having issues
> with their form of PTC.

You seem to be operating under all sorts of misconceptions about what PTC does and does not do. It does not perform end-of-train detection so same-track train-to-train collision protection is limited to what it is under ATC (restricted speed). PTC also does not apply to shoving movements, however most implementations have been poorly implemented so if a train shoves past a proceed signal, when the shoving locomotives approach the signal itself the PTC system sees it as a Stop signal and perform a penalty application. A permission past stop procedure needs to be performed or, in the case of many switching movements, it needs to be cut out. (Ideally one could simply set direction of travel and when moving in reverse the PTC would cut out automatically with a 30mph limit per FRA regulations).

JLinDE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What I see wrong with this is that everyone thinks
> PTC will solve all these problems. CSX installed
> PTC on the Philadelphia Subdivision last summer.
> This is a main track route that lost it's
> scheduled passenger trains in 1958. Maximum
> freight train speed is 50 mph but less than that
> over abut a third of the route. It has CTC with
> new LED signals, the old CPL's are gone. What I
> have heard is that PTC has to be cut out when a
> train is switching. It cannot handle the back and
> forth movements thru interlockings. Here at
> Wilsmere two or three trains set-off or pick-up
> every day, with cuts up to 150 cars. This means a
> train with the PTC cut out is stretched out a mile
> or more on single track often for an hour or more.
> Now, if a train coming the other direction fails
> to heed signals will it's PTC recognize a train
> with its PTC cut out and prevent an accident? In
> addition to this on a line with only 14-18 trains
> a day, and I do not listen to all of them, hardly
> a day goes by where there is not some problem with
> PTC and trains are authorized to run without it.
> And when I listen to radio feeds that include
> Amtrak it seems they are constantly having issues
> with their form of PTC.

PTC should enforce the train's compliance with the signals. I don't think the state of other trains (cut in/cut out) has any impact on how the system fuctions.

Other than Cascade-501, which Amtrak wreck was preventable by PTC, and only PTC ? I can't think of any, in spite of NTSB's half-assed report on 188.

With the Silver Star, the signal system was deliberately cut off. If there were PTC already, it would have been rendered inoperable as well. That is an issue for whether or not Amtrak should be rerouted off of there for the duration, not a PTC issue.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/16/18 10:31 by joemvcnj.