Passenger Trains > BNSF files for PTC extension

I didn’t see this posted here. BNSF is asking for a 2 year extension of PTC requirements due to interoperability issues with short lines and commuter lines that operate on their railroad.


https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/businesswire/press_releases/Texas/2018/06/13/20180613006262

The problem areas could be Railrunner, Sounder, and/or the Minneapolis system.

Does RTD in Denver use any trackage owned by BNSF ?

Posted from Android

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> The problem areas could be Railrunner, Sounder,
> and/or the Minneapolis system.
>
> Does RTD in Denver use any trackage owned by BNSF
> ?
>
> Posted from Android


Don't forget METRA (that's probably the big one). I don't believe RTD operates on any BNSF track currently. Railrunner is on state owned tracks, so not BNSF's responsibility.

I thought Metra-BNSF just put in new schedules (with teething problems) because of PTC ?

Posted from Android

Sounder and BNSF are already interopeable

Not sure about NM Railrunner! Part of that still sees freight traffic.
Plus, wouldn't be great if BNSF did a PTC end around for the Raton line to save the SW Chief!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/14/18 13:13 by mp51w.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> I thought Metra-BNSF just put in new schedules
> (with teething problems) because of PTC ?

Yes, PTC is operating on the Chicago Sub which is what Metra uses between Chicago and Aurora.

The "teething" problems seem to be related to other schedule revisions that Metra instituted in an attempt to alleviate crowding on the trains that serve Rt. 59 and Naperville (two highest riderships). One contributing issues is that many trains now run a few minutes earlier and people who believed in getting to the platform just in time are having to catch the next train. And there were some trains eliminated altogether (mostly in Zones B and C).

Hopefully, some of the wrinkles will work themselves out in a couple of weeks. Remember, commuters are creatures of habit (same parking spot, same train, same train car, same seat) and changes can upset a routine one has been following for years.

kevink Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought Metra-BNSF just put in new schedules
> > (with teething problems) because of PTC ?
>
> Yes, PTC is operating on the Chicago Sub which is
> what Metra uses between Chicago and Aurora.
>
> The "teething" problems seem to be related to
> other schedule revisions that Metra instituted in
> an attempt to alleviate crowding on the trains
> that serve Rt. 59 and Naperville (two highest
> riderships). One contributing issues is that many
> trains now run a few minutes earlier and people
> who believed in getting to the platform just in
> time are having to catch the next train. And there
> were some trains eliminated altogether (mostly in
> Zones B and C).
>
> Hopefully, some of the wrinkles will work
> themselves out in a couple of weeks. Remember,
> commuters are creatures of habit (same parking
> spot, same train, same train car, same seat) and
> changes can upset a routine one has been following
> for years.


From an "inside source", one of the early issues with PTC implementation on the BNSF East End, i.e. the METRA operation between Aurora and CUS, has been the delay in "flipping" trains. It was discovered early on, that the PTC system simply would NOT recognize that the Engineer changed ends, and was ready to proceed in the opposite direction. There have been lots of growing pains with PTC implementation involving push-pull operations on METRA, and probably with all other commuter operations around the country.

will amtrak l.d. trains still run on lines that have ptc delayed/not implemented?

66

goneon66 Wrote:
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> will amtrak l.d. trains still run on lines that
> have ptc delayed/not implemented?
>
> 66
Good question. Originally Anderson said no Amtrak trains would run after December 31 w/out PTC. That threat still hangs out there for the Southwest Chief as the Raton Sub has a FRA waiver and Rail Runner will not be PTC ready until November 1, 2020.

Posted from iPhone

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> kevink Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > joemvcnj Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > I thought Metra-BNSF just put in new
> schedules
> > > (with teething problems) because of PTC ?
> >
> > Yes, PTC is operating on the Chicago Sub which
> is
> > what Metra uses between Chicago and Aurora.
> >
> > The "teething" problems seem to be related to
> > other schedule revisions that Metra instituted
> in
> > an attempt to alleviate crowding on the trains
> > that serve Rt. 59 and Naperville (two highest
> > riderships). One contributing issues is that
> many
> > trains now run a few minutes earlier and people
> > who believed in getting to the platform just in
> > time are having to catch the next train. And
> there
> > were some trains eliminated altogether (mostly
> in
> > Zones B and C).
> >
> > Hopefully, some of the wrinkles will work
> > themselves out in a couple of weeks. Remember,
> > commuters are creatures of habit (same parking
> > spot, same train, same train car, same seat)
> and
> > changes can upset a routine one has been
> following
> > for years.
>
>
> From an "inside source", one of the early issues
> with PTC implementation on the BNSF East End, i.e.
> the METRA operation between Aurora and CUS, has
> been the delay in "flipping" trains. It was
> discovered early on, that the PTC system simply
> would NOT recognize that the Engineer changed
> ends, and was ready to proceed in the opposite
> direction. There have been lots of growing pains
> with PTC implementation involving push-pull
> operations on METRA, and probably with all other
> commuter operations around the country.

I am not surprised to hear this snafu, Jack. In my PTC training class, it has been suggested that if PTC doesn’t “pick you up” that you can move your train forwards or backwards until it does! From what I was told, a move of 50 feet or so “helps” the system detect your train at that point. Sure, there are teething problems with anything new, but this suggested solution seems very odd to me.
I will run with it for a few years before I retire... And, even stranger to me— which you’ll appreciate— is how they’ll apply this stuff to a steam locomotive... Beyond strange — especially since the engines will NEVER operate in regular service.... Why oh why can’t they grant a waiver in such cases ?!?

I think that being impacted by a steam loco would probably be just as traumatic as being impacted by a diesel-electric or electric.

Lurch_in_ABQ Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think that being impacted by a steam loco would
> probably be just as traumatic as being impacted by
> a diesel-electric or electric.


Who said anything about "impacted"? Besides, molars & wisdom teeth get "impacted".

mp51w Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Not sure about NM Railrunner! Part of that still
> sees freight traffic.
> Plus, wouldn't be great if BNSF did a PTC end
> around for the Raton line to save the SW Chief!

SW Chief's main problem is not BNSF's Raton Line, which is exempt. It is the Railrunner around Albuquerque which cannot be exempted unless Railrunner reduces the number of its runs on weekdays.

Amtrak will simply do its SMS analysis on the BNSF Raton Line and come to the conclusion that one train in each direction a day can be safely operated without PTC. If they come to any other conclusion it would not really be based on any safety considerations at all.

> I am not surprised to hear this snafu, Jack. In
> my PTC training class, it has been suggested that
> if PTC doesn’t “pick you up” that you can
> move your train forwards or backwards until it
> does! From what I was told, a move of 50 feet or
> so “helps” the system detect your train at
> that point. Sure, there are teething problems
> with anything new, but this suggested solution
> seems very odd to me.
> I will run with it for a few years before I
> retire... And, even stranger to me— which
> you’ll appreciate— is how they’ll apply this
> stuff to a steam locomotive... Beyond strange —
> especially since the engines will NEVER operate in
> regular service.... Why oh why can’t they grant
> a waiver in such cases ?!?

I'm glad to hear that you guys are getting cut in on PTC Mark; although don't hold to the 50 feet rule. I really hope things get worked out for passenger trains-if PTC does not pick up the signal, we run at restricted speed thru the block and hope that the next signal picks up-a pain in the neck for freight, untenable for passenger service. On the plus side, things are getting ironed out. We don't have PTC in the Canyon Sub yet, and it used to be we didn't get a signal till Mitchell avenue on the Sac Sub. Yesterday my engineer (Opie) and I were pleasantly surprised to see our screens light up at James. Go figure. The railroad is amazing...it's like "Groundhog Day" or "50 First Dates" every day, right?

Where's my emoji key?????

A little more fact than fiction...

PTC Systems are tied to specific locomotives. If your running west on Meta Loco 1234, change ends and now in Metra cabcar 5678 - you need to log out of the loco (part of changing ends) and log into the cab car.

The FRA treats cab cars similar to locomotives. You cannot operate PTC from the other side of the train.

Now for those that may balloon and change directions but remain he leader, there was an update recently (would have to dig up he text) that addressed that.

With PTC you can move the train 100ft before it goes active. Recent update also lets you select train direction prior to moving.

Before PTC hardware/software is updated, all the railroads reach an agreement on how it’s updated and with what changes that will apply to all railroads. It’s “interoperable”, so everyone needs to be onboard and sometimes issues that are discovered needs to be addressed so one fix doesn’t cause an issue for another railroad.