Passenger Trains > Brightline wants to go to Tampa

TALLAHASSEE — Gov. Rick Scott, who rejected $2.4 billion in federal funding for a high-speed train from Orlando to Tampa as one of his first acts in office, revealed Friday that a similar but privately funded project is on the table.

The Florida Department of Transportation received an unsolicited proposal in March from Brightline to lease right of way and build a high-speed rail line connecting Orlando and Tampa along Interstate 4.

Brightline already is building a rail line from Miami to Orlando, with a terminus at Orlando International Airport. The company on Tuesday got approval from Orange County leaders to lay tracks across wetlands for that project.

To see if other companies might be interested in the Orlando to Tampa route, Scott said DOT and the Central Florida Expressway Authority will put out a bid for the project, with proposals due in four months.

Scott, who is in the middle of a heated campaign for U.S. Senate against incumbent Democrat Bill Nelson of Orlando, stressed that the project would be completely funded by the private sector.

“This is an exciting opportunity for Orlando, Tampa and our entire state,’’ he said in a statement. “When I became governor, the Obama administration was trying to use federal taxpayer dollars to pay for a rail connection that had an extremely high risk of overspending taxpayer dollars with no guarantee of economic growth. Through private investment, we [will] ensure that this major project has zero financial risk to Florida taxpayers.”

(more)


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/political-pulse/os-high-speed-rail-orlando-20180622-story.html

ldstephey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> TALLAHASSEE — Gov. Rick Scott, who rejected $2.4
> billion in federal funding for a high-speed train
> from Orlando to Tampa as one of his first acts in
> office, revealed Friday that a similar but
> privately funded project is on the table.
>
> The Florida Department of Transportation received
> an unsolicited proposal in March from Brightline
> to lease right of way and build a high-speed rail
> line connecting Orlando and Tampa along Interstate
> 4.
>
> Brightline already is building a rail line from
> Miami to Orlando, with a terminus at Orlando
> International Airport. The company on Tuesday got
> approval from Orange County leaders to lay tracks
> across wetlands for that project.
>
> To see if other companies might be interested in
> the Orlando to Tampa route, Scott said DOT and the
> Central Florida Expressway Authority will put out
> a bid for the project, with proposals due in four
> months.
>
> Scott, who is in the middle of a heated campaign
> for U.S. Senate against incumbent Democrat Bill
> Nelson of Orlando, stressed that the project would
> be completely funded by the private sector.
>
> “This is an exciting opportunity for Orlando,
> Tampa and our entire state,’’ he said in a
> statement. “When I became governor, the Obama
> administration was trying to use federal taxpayer
> dollars to pay for a rail connection that had an
> extremely high risk of overspending taxpayer
> dollars with no guarantee of economic growth.
> Through private investment, we ensure that this
> major project has zero financial risk to Florida
> taxpayers.”
>
> (more)
>
>
> http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/politics/polit
> ical-pulse/os-high-speed-rail-orlando-20180622-sto
> ry.html

Glad to see he supports the passenger rail but what a two face clown Scot is..Let's see how long he supports it once the Highway/Oil Lobbby gives him a call....His giving back the federal dollars for the Tampa - Orlando HSR was purely political.

I have no doubt that Fortress/FEC Industries was in Scott's ear when he rejected the HSR funds back in 2011. Yes, All Aboard Florida wasn't announced until 2012, but I'm sure it was in the works before then. Now we get a system that is slower, costs more to use, and serves less areas.

bluesboyst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Glad to see he supports the passenger rail but what a two face clown Scot is..Let's see how long
> he supports it once the Highway/Oil Lobbby gives him a call....His giving back the federal dollars
> for the Tampa - Orlando HSR was purely political.

Any knowledgeable observer who looked at what those federal dollars were being spent on in Florida could see that a HSR project with 7-8 stops in an 80 mile run was "purely political" -- to use your description -- and made no sense from a scheduling or economic perspective. For HSR, even the NEC is flawed; for example in the 126 miles between Washington and Philadelphia Acela makes 2-3 stops at BWI (often), Baltimore and Wilmington. Each of these stops requires 2-4 minutes AT AN AVERAGE SPEED OF ZERO, not to mention time lost in decelerating/accelerating from/to track speed. This decreases average speed and increases run time. By comparison, the HSR Eurostar between London and Paris runs non-stop for over two hours at speeds between 100-180 MPH.
Likewise, I don't see a lot of riders in Florida who can routinely afford HSR prices, e.g. $123-188 on Acela from Washington to Philadelphia.

Interestingly, the only federally funded HSR project to survive from that period is in California...and its future is clouded. The aborted Florida HSR was a sham from the beginning, and Scot did well to abort it. The money would have been better spent on Disney World, IMO, at least there fantasy is recognized from the outset.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/23/18 08:14 by hazegray.

hazegray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bluesboyst Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > Glad to see he supports the passenger rail but
> what a two face clown Scot is..Let's see how long
> > he supports it once the Highway/Oil Lobbby gives
> him a call....His giving back the federal dollars
> > for the Tampa - Orlando HSR was purely
> political.
>
> Any knowledgeable observer who looked at what
> those federal dollars were being spent on in
> Florida could see that a HSR project with 7-8
> stops in an 80 mile run was "purely political" --
> to use your description -- and made no sense from
> a scheduling or economic perspective. For HSR,
> even the NEC is flawed; for example in the 126
> miles between Washington and Philadelphia Acela
> makes 2-3 stops at BWI (often), Baltimore and
> Wilmington. Each of these stops requires 2-4
> minutes AT AN AVERAGE SPEED OF ZERO, not to
> mention time lost in decelerating/accelerating
> from/to track speed. This decreases average speed
> and increases run time. By comparison, the HSR
> Eurostar between London and Paris runs non-stop
> for over two hours at speeds between 100-180 MPH.
>
> Likewise, I don't see a lot of riders in Florida
> who can routinely afford HSR prices, e.g. $123-188
> on Acela from Washington to Philadelphia.
>
> Interestingly, the only federally funded HSR
> project to survive from that period is in
> California...and its future is clouded. The
> aborted Florida HSR was a sham from the beginning,
> and Scot did well to abort it. The money would
> have been better spent on Disney World, IMO, at
> least there fantasy is recognized from the outset.

So what if it made 7-8 stops? Would you rather sit bumper to bumper on an interstate?

bluesboyst Wrote:
>
> So what if it made 7-8 stops? Would you rather
> sit bumper to bumper on an interstate?

I think the point is, that the train would never get up to speed between those frequent stops.

ldstephey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> bluesboyst Wrote:
> >
> > So what if it made 7-8 stops? Would you rather sit bumper to bumper on an interstate?
>
> I think the point is, that the train would never get up to speed between those frequent stops.

Thank you, ld...that is the exactly my point. :-)

hazegray Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ldstephey Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > bluesboyst Wrote:
> > >
> > > So what if it made 7-8 stops? Would you
> rather sit bumper to bumper on an interstate?
> >
> > I think the point is, that the train would never
> get up to speed between those frequent stops.
>
> Thank you, ld...that is the exactly my point. :-)

Indeed. A nonstop train would cover 80 miles much faster at 125mph MAS, than a train that stops 8 times with a MAS of 200mph. It will hardly ever get upto 200mph with a stop every ten miles, or even a stop every 20 miles with skip stop. So all of that extra HSR hardening of the ROW would be a complete waste. I never understood what they were thinking when they put together that Orlando - Tampa project proposal for HSR.

I think it is similar to the Beijing-Tianjin HSR line in China. That line is 73 miles and has 9 stations, very similar to the Tampa-Orlando proposal which would have also allowed for a later extension to Miami (eventually).

I wonder what the actual Tampa to Orlando travel pattern is. If I had to bet, it's mainly people going to the theme parks in Orlando and the beaches in Clearwater. The connection to Orlando Airport will be a big plus for Tampa resident/visitors too. Assuming the station is near I-275/I-4 interchange, hopefully Brightline doesn't block a further westward extension to St. Pete with a food hall. It doesn't help that Orlando is very spread out, and the road network is not conducive to any sort of transportation other than by automobile. That might make a line to downtown Orlando less likely.

If FDOT was smart, and the State/CSX would play ball, extending SunRail to Tampa might not be a bad idea as a lower speed and more frequent stop service (similar to the Capitol Corridor in California). Maybe something will happen 20 years from now when SunRail is a mature system (assuming it still exists) and population continues to increase in Central Florida.

bluesboyst Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> So what if it made 7-8 stops? Would you rather
> sit bumper to bumper on an interstate?

I can never tell whether to be depressed or amused at the American tendency to pick a transportation solution and go looking for a problem.

First we pick a speed: 180 mph, 200, 300 Mach 1, WARP 3 (aye cap'n, I canna do, she'll break up), then dismiss any transportation need that does not meet the criteria.
100 mph? Not True High Speed Rail.
110 mph? Not True High Speed Rail.
125 mph? Not True High Speed Rail.
150 mph? Not True High Speed Rail.
Not True High Speed Rail, not necessary.

Americans in general are acting like crows. They see a shiny thing and they want it. They don't know what it is for, what it does, or how to use it, but it is shiny and they want it. The shiny new thing becomes an object of religion. The religion excludes nonbelievers. There is nothing except for the Quest for Purity.

Maybe, one might do something irrational instead, like
1. Pick a problem (sitting on an interstate)
2. Examine the details (travel origin/destination, amount of travel, etc.)
3. Develop a solution (assuming rail: station locations, apply origin/destination to stations, develop a service plan - all through all stops, mixed thru express, mixed headway and short turns, etc.)
4. Develop the infrastructure and equipment the service plan needs
5. Develop the operating plan

Nah, that might not get us a shiny thing. Shiny new thing better than anyone else's or nothing!

TAW

I-4 between Orlando and Tampa is the most dangerous
Interstate in the USA!
Most Saturdays I go from Lakeland to Orlando and
the West (SB) direction is stopped or nearly so,bumber to bumber.

Uncle Joe
near the interchange of I-4 and I-75

retcsxcfm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I-4 between Orlando and Tampa is the most
> dangerous
> Interstate in the USA!
> Most Saturdays I go from Lakeland to Orlando and
> the West (SB) direction is stopped or nearly
> so,bumber to bumber.
>
> Uncle Joe
> near the interchange of I-4 and I-75

My vote for most dangerous is I-95 W. Palm to Miami, like Indianapolis most days. Little enforcement.  If only they could bring in speed cameras.
 

PennPlat Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> retcsxcfm Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I-4 between Orlando and Tampa is the most
> > dangerous
> > Interstate in the USA!
> > Most Saturdays I go from Lakeland to Orlando
> and
> > the West (SB) direction is stopped or nearly
> > so,bumber to bumber.
> >
> > Uncle Joe
> > near the interchange of I-4 and I-75
>
> My vote for most dangerous is I-95 W. Palm to
> Miami, like Indianapolis most days. Little
> enforcement.  If only they could bring in speed
> cameras.
>  

and why is there little enforcement?  not enough funding for law enforcement?

66

Very doubtfull in my opinion. I agree with the blueboyst, the rejection was a political stunt. Didn't he then try to grab it at the last minute and lose his opportunity?

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com
chrsjrcj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have no doubt that Fortress/FEC Industries was
> in Scott's ear when he rejected the HSR funds back
> in 2011. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/24/18 09:28 by wabash2800.

I-95 from Fort Lauderdale to Palm Beach Gardens can be scary late at night.

People driving 110+, drag racing, high speed weaving, occasional shoot outs, etc.

You want to be very aware of your surroundings.

Posted from Android

HSR is not required, regional rail is (which is what Brightline's product partially is).  Top speed of 80-110mph would be more than adequate for this route, and as it exists, the same principle applies to the NEC -which keeps the patrons flowing.  There are distances that are densely populated, they're not the channel tunnel,.  Last time I checked, not many people can live between Gar du Nord and King St. as much of it is under water, thereby uninhabitable by humans without gills. Once above ground in the southern UK, the train does slow, as it has to due to density. Florida is one state that this should happen in, but this will be a false start, as mot things in FL are. The guise of "private" money is cute, especially under the umbrella of Snott.

Exactly what’s wrong with the California project. It’s days are numbered. They have no “Plan B,” so it will take years to reverse the damage and California will fall behind other states.

Posted from iPhone