Passenger Trains > Caltrain Facing a "Denver" Grade Crossing Problem?

Caltrain's 25kv AC electrification project shares the same contractor(Balfour Beatty) as Denver's RTD
and they also share the same PTC contractor(Wabtec).  There seems to be concern that Caltrain may
face some of the same issues as Denver regarding RTD's grade crossing activation problems.  The
following link looks at some of the steps Denver is taking(some of them in the courts) and whether
Caltrain can learn from those lessons:

http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2018/12/grade-crossing-trouble-ahead.html

Caltrain has three times as many grade crossings as RTD.  The attached photo looks north at downtown
San Mateo where Caltrain has five crossings in a distance of less than 1500'.  Southbounds that stop at
the station(as the one in the photo is) appear to use horn activation to activate this string of gates.

---

Can’t even imagine an HSR train traveling through there at 125MPH. doesn’t look promising to widen or add a third track either. So are we to assume Caltrans and HSR will share the same tracks here? HSR was only to stop in San Jose then onto San Francisco.

Valleyman

FRA regulation limits at grade operations to 110 MPH. This is also why the IL and Michigan corridors are only doing 110 as well. To exceed 110 you have to have a protected right of way with FRA sign off, including removal of all crossings and fencing, upgraded bridge railings where pedestrians could fall on the track, and more. Like the sort of thing we see on urban interstates.

Posted from iPhone

deestrains Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> FRA regulation limits at grade operations to 110
> MPH. This is also why the IL and Michigan
> corridors are only doing 110 as well. To exceed
> 110 you have to have a protected right of way with
> FRA sign off, including removal of all crossings
> and fencing, upgraded bridge railings where
> pedestrians could fall on the track, and more.
> Like the sort of thing we see on urban
> interstates.
>
> Posted from iPhone
Close, that is actually the requirements for above 125mph. For above 110, the FRA requires every crossing to be "hardened" which is a minimum of quad gates at every crossing. That gets really expensive.

So strange.

Too bad no one in California has ever figured out how to raise or lower a railroad abvoe or below grade and widen it by adding tracks while it remains in operation.  You know, like was done throught Chicago and Philadelphia 100 years ago, or like Long Island is doing right now on the Main Line or did back in the 1960's on the Babylon Branch.

Wonder if they are even aware that can be done.

Is Caltrain going to be smart enough to just adopt an off the shelf cab signal system and ACSES PTC system that can be implemented in 3 years, or do we need yet another rube goldberg PTC system to be tried out?

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So strange.
>
> Too bad no one in California has ever figured out
> how to raise or lower a railroad abvoe or below
> grade and widen it by adding tracks while it
> remains in operation.  You know, like was done
> throught Chicago and Philadelphia 100 years ago,
> or like Long Island is doing right now on the Main
> Line or did back in the 1960's on the Babylon
> Branch.
>
> Wonder if they are even aware that can be done.


Not true.  Belmont and San Carlos raised the Caltrain tracks thru their communities without stopping the services, other than for one weekend at the beginning and end of the track elevation to connect and then unconnect the shooflies.

Don’t put facts in the way.

chakk Wrote:

> Not true.  Belmont and San Carlos raised the
> Caltrain tracks thru their communities without
> stopping the services, other than for one weekend
> at the beginning and end of the track elevation to
> connect and then unconnect the shooflies.

abyler Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So strange.
>
> Too bad no one in California has ever figured out
> how to raise or lower a railroad abvoe or below
> grade and widen it by adding tracks while it
> remains in operation.  You know, like was done
> throught Chicago and Philadelphia 100 years ago,
> or like Long Island is doing right now on the Main
> Line or did back in the 1960's on the Babylon
> Branch.
>
> Wonder if they are even aware that can be done.

Removing all grade crossings was in the original HSR plan, but the mid-pennisula community such as Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Atherton, fought to keep Caltrain ROW the way it is now.

Trenching or tunneling to put Caltrain tracks under the road simply is cost-prohibitive, due to high water table along those communities.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/18 19:36 by will74205.

Grade-crossing on 25kV AC lines are not new. How did other countries did it? Or are there some special US requirements that aren't there in other countries?

Denver's has a parrallel street which adds to complexity greatly, you have to have green for 4 directions, left turn arrows, plus the rail traffic on more frequent headways.

Whenmy wife and I rode the TGV in the early '90s we saw grade crossings in and near Paris. They were the hardened kind - 4 gates, etc.
BTW, there are all kinds of RR crossing grade seperations in Calif. including one near my home (Oak Creek Rd.) which I was instrumental in getting built in 1999 and another one at the south end of town. The Oak Creek Rd. is equipped with camera ports whiuch I requested for railfans... Just don't park on the overpass unless you want to be smashed by a cement truck or towed by a Chippie...
And then there's that big ditch in LA...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

Nice job getting the ports installed on the overpass! You should have consulted with a real railfan before the work was done. The ports needed to be on west end of the overpass. There useless due to the winter and summer sun angles where there currently located. I always wondered you and the **** had them located where there at. 


Valleyman



MojaveBill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Whenmy wife and I rode the TGV in the early '90s
> we saw grade crossings in and near Paris. They
> were the hardened kind - 4 gates, etc.
> BTW, there are all kinds of RR crossing grade
> seperations in Calif. including one near my home
> (Oak Creek Rd.) which I was instrumental in
> getting built in 1999 and another one at the south
> end of town. The Oak Creek Rd. is equipped with
> camera ports whiuch I requested for railfans...
> Just don't park on the overpass unless you want to
> be smashed by a cement truck or towed by a
> Chippie...
> And then there's that big ditch in LA...

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Denver's has a parrallel street which adds to
> complexity greatly, you have to have green for 4
> directions, left turn arrows, plus the rail
> traffic on more frequent headways.

Caltrain has several parallel street crossings as well, especially in Palo Alto and 
Mountain View.  One of the most notorious at Broadway in Burlingame is currently
under study for grade separation.
http://www.caltrain.com/projectsplans/Projects/Caltrain_Capital_Program/Burlingame-Broadway-GS.html

Contractors are at present constructing a grade separation at 25th Ave. in San Mateo
and at the same time moving the Hillsdale station 1/4 mile north.  Check back again
in about 30 years by which time we may have the whole SF-SJ line done.
http://www.caltrain.com/projectsplans/Projects/Caltrain_Capital_Program/25th_Avenue_Grade_Separation.html



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/18 21:23 by milepost20.

maybe by then denver's A line  will be doing better, another problem are suicides, the A line has only had a couple.

will74205 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> abyler Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > So strange.
> >
> > Too bad no one in California has ever figured
> out
> > how to raise or lower a railroad abvoe or below
> > grade and widen it by adding tracks while it
> > remains in operation.  You know, like was done
> > throught Chicago and Philadelphia 100 years
> ago,
> > or like Long Island is doing right now on the
> Main
> > Line or did back in the 1960's on the Babylon
> > Branch.
> >
> > Wonder if they are even aware that can be done.
>
> Removing all grade crossings was in the original
> HSR plan, but the mid-pennisula community such as
> Palo Alto, Menlo Park, Atherton, fought to keep
> Caltrain ROW the way it is now.

Of course, we all love grade crossing accidents, loud train whistles at all hours of the day and night, slow operating speeds, train congestion, and handy to access suicide-prone right of ways.  These are the things that give our industry a good name.  Who doesn't want these sort of benefits for their town?

> Trenching or tunneling to put Caltrain tracks
> under the road simply is cost-prohibitive, due to
> high water table along those communities.

Weird, I built one of those impossible tunnels that's cost-prohibitive when we put BART right next to Caltrain down to Millbrae.  We had only one area with a water problem, contractor came up with an ingenious easy to implement solution that kept the tunnel dry.

SPC Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don’t put facts in the way.
>
> chakk Wrote:
>
> > Not true.  Belmont and San Carlos raised the
> > Caltrain tracks thru their communities without
> > stopping the services, other than for one
> weekend
> > at the beginning and end of the track elevation
> to
> > connect and then unconnect the shooflies.

Yes they did that just in time to not make the structures have enough tracks on them for what they are supposedly going to operate with high speed rail.

well the Boring compamy will show us how it is done



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/11/18 07:06 by dan.

High Speed rail would have built four tracks above or below the crossings.  It would have fixed it all.  But the snobby peninsula towns would have none of it and now true high speed rail won't start until San Jose.

Stan Praisewater

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> well the Boring compamy will show us how it is
> done

LOL, no they won't.