Passenger Trains > Diffeeent POV on Contemporary Dining

Saw this post on another site:

Just got off of 30 yesterday, CHI-WAS.

I really enjoyed the upgraded hot meals (pasta dish was very good, and heard people say the beef was very good) and I thought the new breakfast set up is great. All-you-can-eat self serve items set up on a table, and you ask the attendant if you want fruit, hard boiled eggs, or a hot breakfast sandwich.

I frankly wish they’d expand this service model to all one night trips. I appreciate the come and go as you please, laid back nature. But we all have our preferences.

Could you please post a link to where exactly this came from?

Regardless, 85% of the passengers on the train are banned from the car. No wonder is was "laid back". 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Regardless, 85% of the passengers on the train are
> banned from the car. No wonder is was "laid
> back". 

Both the LSL and Capitol had coach passenger participation rates of less than 15%, and the vast majority of the 15% only purchased one meal, so your argument doesn’t hold water.

Having an exclusive car just for sleeper car passengers is an upgrade for those customers. All the hype on here about the loss of interaction with fellow passengers and the dining car experience is not true. A well thought out and properly served pre-prepared meal is better than most of the previous dining car meals.

Posted from iPhone

another_view Wrote: 
------------------------------------------------------- 
> Both the LSL and Capitol had coach passenger 
> participation rates of less than 15%, and the vast 
> majority of the 15% only purchased one meal, so 
> your argument doesn’t hold water. 
> 
> Having an exclusive car just for sleeper car 
> passengers is an upgrade for those customers. All 
> the hype on here about the loss of interaction 
> with fellow passengers and the dining car 
> experience is not true. A well thought out and 
> properly served pre-prepared meal is better than 
> most of the previous dining car meals. 

Wrong. Performance Improvement Plan for the Lake Shore Ltd had coach passenger participation in the diner rated at 50%. That would also explain why there were FOUR dinner seatings WITH reservations required. These chronically late trains are also in service for 3 meals, with diner preparations for only two. More money left on the counter..  

They pulled the Pacific Parlor Car off the Coast Starlight. That shows they don't give a damn about an exclusive car for those passengers. Don't tell us the 7-Eleven food they are now serving is an upgrade of the diner service they were getting. 
  
There is NOTHING well thought out about having a snack car with 6 tables for up to 6 coaches , 300 coach passengers and NO FOOD whatever south of Albany, which means nothing until at least 7pm northbound. That was 2 dinner seatings right there and no take out snacks anymore either. Do you understand how dangerous it is for diabetics to skip meals ???   

4th quarter ridership is down 5% on the Lake Shore Limited and 9% on the Capitol Ltd. System average is down 3%.  

The more you defend this, the more ridiculous your spin jobs sound. 

 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/19 16:38 by joemvcnj.

Every one of the Performance Improvements Plans were pipe dreams, riddled with falsehoods and unfulfilled promises that were backed up by ridiculous statistics. Please let us know of a single promise or proposal made in one of the performance improvement plans that was actually completed and delivered the promised results.

Posted from iPhone

another_view Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every one of the Performance Improvements Plans
> were pipe dreams, riddled with falsehoods and
> unfulfilled promises that were backed up by
> ridiculous statistics. Please let us know of a
> single promise or proposal made in one of the
> performance improvement plans that was actually
> completed and delivered the promised results.

They were well-researched, fact-filled documents, even if it does not fit you silly theories. They were also required to be produced by PRIAA legislation section 210. Seems to be OK to rake sections of the PRIAA law some do not like under the rug, to say nothing of Section 216 (encourages charters & specials). 

Boardman fired all the PIP managers. That does not make them bad proposals, but hapless management that has no growth or improvement strategy. Anderson then removed them from the website to make sure they were forgotten, basically a book-burning exorcism by a stupid dictator. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/19 16:45 by joemvcnj.

another_view Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Every one of the Performance Improvements Plans
> were pipe dreams, riddled with falsehoods and
> unfulfilled promises that were backed up by
> ridiculous statistics. Please let us know of a
> single promise or proposal made in one of the
> performance improvement plans that was actually
> completed and delivered the promised results.
>
> Posted from iPhone

The best idea was moving the Lake Shore Limited's eastbound departure up earlier and making the Capital Limited the cleanup train with a connection at Pittsburgh.  This was supposed to happen after some NS (?) trackwork was completed.  Must be done by now I would think. 

FloridaTrainGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another_view Wrote:
> The best idea was moving the Lake Shore Limited's
> eastbound departure up earlier and making the
> Capital Limited the cleanup train with a
> connection at Pittsburgh.  This was supposed to
> happen after some NS (?) trackwork was
> completed.  Must be done by now I would think. 

MARC and CSX don't want the Capitol Ltd schedule messed with very much, keeps them out of DC's rush hour.  The connection at Pittsburgh were to be thru cars. That probably would have encouraged Penn-DOT to start a 2nd Pennsylvanian. With such a sloppy connection now, sometimes missed eastbound, the connecting traffic has been worn down.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another_view Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Every one of the Performance Improvements Plans
> > were pipe dreams, riddled with falsehoods and
> > unfulfilled promises that were backed up by
> > ridiculous statistics. Please let us know of a
> > single promise or proposal made in one of the
> > performance improvement plans that was actually
> > completed and delivered the promised results.
>
> They were well-researched, fact-filled documents,
> even if it does not fit you silly theories. They
> were also required to be produced by PRIAA
> legislation section 210. Seems to be OK to rake
> sections of the PRIAA law some do not like under
> the rug, to say nothing of Section 216 (encourages
> charters & specials). 
>
> Boardman fired all the PIP managers. That does not
> make them bad proposals, but hapless management
> that has no growth or improvement strategy.
> Anderson then removed them from the website to
> make sure they were forgotten, basically a
> book-burning exorcism by a stupid dictator

Please let us know when you actually find a fact that can be substantiated in any of the plans. Better yet a proposal that was made that actually was implemented and more importantly generated the promised results.

Posted from iPhone

another_view Wrote:
> Please let us know when you actually find a fact
> that can be substantiated in any of the plans.
> Better yet a proposal that was made that actually
> was implemented and more importantly generated the
> promised results.

You have been told there were PIPs with facts and plans and the online PIPs were discarded. 

If you think they are fake news, that is your problem, not mine.

You have no idea what you are babbling about in your spin jobs and neither do I.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/18/19 17:28 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another_view Wrote:
> > Please let us know when you actually find a
> fact
> > that can be substantiated in any of the plans.
> > Better yet a proposal that was made that
> actually
> > was implemented and more importantly generated
> the
> > promised results.
>
> You have been told there were PIPs with facts and
> plans and the online PIPs were discarded. 
>
> If you think they are fake news, that is your
> problem, not mine.
>
> You have no idea what you are babbling about in
> your spin jobs and neither do I.

You are absolutely correct, there were Performance Improvement Plans. They were filled with statistics which are quite different from facts. They also contained grandiose plans, the vast majority of which were never implemented and the few that were followed through on never produced the promised results. It is no secret that I am not a fan of Joe Boardman but the managers that were released rightfully deserved to be released, any responsible organization would fire employees that falsified information or failed to follow through on their commitments. In this case they knowingly did both.

The PIPs were not discarded, they were federally mandated documents that continue to be available although not on the Amtrak website. I just pulled up the LSL plan with a simple Google search.

You seem to be convinced that these were viable plans backed by facts. Please give one example of a plan that was implemented and provided the promised results.

Having traveled on the Lake Shore over 15 years for probably 50-60 times, I think I can safely say that the skeleton meal service now in operation is in no possible way comparable to what had been true for all those trips. One of the most enjoyable aspects of long distance train travel is meeting other passengers over a meal in a real dining car, of course, there are some people who may not enjoy meeting other people especially those with other backgrounds, history, age, experience, etc. One of the most  memorable breakfasts I ever experienced was aboard the City of New Orleans where I spent 4 hours over breakfast as we ran along the banks of the Mississippi talking about every conceivable topic with George W. Bush's dentist, a political exile from Zimbabwe and a retired Navy mechanic. Now that was a great meal and the best possible way to travel! The last trip on the Lake Shore was some months ago with the "contemporary dining" which pretty much soured me on using Amtrak again: the car was empty, the packaging of the "breakfast" was 90% packaging material, the food value was sugar and Caribs, and value to me was zero. Perhaps some younger passengers might like what is now passing for dining car service simply because they never experienced what is possible but Amtrak should probably remember that there are 75 million aging "boomers" controlling 75% of the nation's disposable income and they really like to enjoy comfortable travel. And remember, just because senior management now in place at Amtrak thinks this is a good way of treating paying customers, does not mean that it is the correct management decision, possibly they are examples of the Peter Principle or the Dunning-Kruger Effect, meaning that they don't know what they are doing.

Well, the source of another_view’s post is legitimate. It can be found on the Facebook group called “Amtrak Fans.”

I see you have given up trying to convince us that 7-Eleven food is better than cooked meals, so you change the subject to PIPs to distract.
How much are Anderson/Gardner paying you to post your nonsense?

another_view wrote:
 
You are absolutely correct, there were Performance Improvement Plans. They were filled with statistics which are quite different from facts. They also contained grandiose plans, the vast majority of which were never implemented and the few that were followed through on never produced the promised results. It is no secret that I am not a fan of Joe Boardman but the managers that were released rightfully deserved to be released, any responsible organization would fire employees that falsified information or failed to follow through on their commitments. In this case they knowingly did both.
 
The PIPs were written by senior and middle management who statistics MATCHED the facts. You have ABSOLUTELY NO BASIS to make accusations they were not. There was no budget to follow though, these people were let go,they no longer had a roll. You are discrediting these reports because you are too lazy to interpret the facts, disliked the conclusions, yet you give validity and start a thread about a Facebook post, too cowardly to state where you found it, because the source is ridiculous. In business, customer surveys are judged by CSI scores and statistical analysis, not random Facebook posts in fan clubs. The lack of dining on those two trains lead to horrid CSI scores, hence minimal improvements.

The PIPs were not discarded, they were federally mandated documents that continue to be available although not on the Amtrak website. I just pulled up the LSL plan with a simple Google search.

They were removed from the Amtrak website, therefore they were officially discarded. Nobody cares what is on Google.
 
You seem to be convinced that these were viable plans backed by facts. Please give one example of a plan that was implemented and provided the promised results.
 
Now we know you have severe reading comprehension issues.
For THIRD TIME, none of the PIPs were implemented. I have stated the reasons they were not. Your conspiracy theories mean nothing,
 
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/19 05:53 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> another_view Wrote: 
> --------------------------------------------------
> ----- 
> > Both the LSL and Capitol had coach passenger 
> > participation rates of less than 15%, and the
> vast 
> > majority of the 15% only purchased one meal,
> so 
> > your argument doesn’t hold water. 
> > 
> > Having an exclusive car just for sleeper car 
> > passengers is an upgrade for those customers.
> All 
> > the hype on here about the loss of
> interaction 
> > with fellow passengers and the dining car 
> > experience is not true. A well thought out
> and 
> > properly served pre-prepared meal is better
> than 
> > most of the previous dining car meals. 
>
> Wrong. Performance Improvement Plan for the Lake
> Shore Ltd had coach passenger participation in the
> diner rated at 50%. That would also explain why
> there were FOUR dinner seatings WITH reservations
> required. These chronically late trains are also
> in service for 3 meals, with diner preparations
> for only two. More money left on the
> counter..  
>
> They pulled the Pacific Parlor Car off the Coast
> Starlight. That shows they don't give a damn about
> an exclusive car for those passengers. Don't tell
> us the 7-Eleven food they are now serving is an
> upgrade of the diner service they were getting. 

 The Coast Starlight is serving 7-Eleven food? I didn't realize 7-Eleven was serving butternut squash risotto. Hopefully it will be in the milianese style. LOL
Anyway, so we are all on the same page....so to speak.....here is the Coast Starlight menu:


https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/menus/routes/Coast-Starlight-Dining-Car-Menu-0917.pdf

Judge for yourself.  Some nice offerings. Thank you taxpayers.  
>   
> There is NOTHING well thought out about having a
> snack car with 6 tables for up to 6 coaches , 300
> coach passengers and NO FOOD whatever south of
> Albany, which means nothing until at least 7pm
> northbound. That was 2 dinner seatings right there
> and no take out snacks anymore either. Do you
> understand how dangerous it is for diabetics to
> skip meals ???   

Are you diabetic? Do you travel without proper backup food and insulin in case of emergency? Might want to rethink your travel planning so you don't find yourself unprepared. Just sayin'
>
> 4th quarter ridership is down 5% on the Lake Shore
> Limited and 9% on the Capitol Ltd. System average
> is down 3%.  
>
> The more you defend this, the more ridiculous your
> spin jobs sound. 
>
>  
Ok...wait a second.....I looked at the ridership declines and only two trains managed to gain ridership....the CZ and the Crescent. The Builder, Chief, Sunset, Coast Starlight all had ridership declines in the most recent release (2018), among the LD trains. It should be noted that those trains all carry full dining service that is available to all passengers. You cited the Lake Shore and the Capitol....but....for some reason you left out these other trains. Why? Which train is first on the list? The Empire Builder with a 5.8% decline that cannot be entirely attributed to weather cancellations. Full dining on that is train open to all passengers. 
Then, to add insult, you claimed the the Coast Starlight has 7-Eleven type food service. Don't look now, but your credibility has decided to take a long walk....without you. 

To quote you....."the more you defend this, the more ridiculous your spin jobs sound". Turnabout is fair play. 

Northeaster Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Having traveled on the Lake Shore over 15 years
> for probably 50-60 times, I think I can safely say
> that the skeleton meal service now in operation is
> in no possible way comparable to what had been
> true for all those trips. One of the most
> enjoyable aspects of long distance train travel is
> meeting other passengers over a meal in a real
> dining car, of course, there are some people who
> may not enjoy meeting other people especially
> those with other backgrounds, history, age,
> experience, etc. One of the most  memorable
> breakfasts I ever experienced was aboard the City
> of New Orleans where I spent 4 hours over
> breakfast as we ran along the banks of the
> Mississippi talking about every conceivable topic
> with George W. Bush's dentist, a political exile
> from Zimbabwe and a retired Navy mechanic. Now
> that was a great meal and the best possible way to
> travel! The last trip on the Lake Shore was some
> months ago with the "contemporary dining" which
> pretty much soured me on using Amtrak again: the
> car was empty, the packaging of the "breakfast"
> was 90% packaging material, the food value was
> sugar and Caribs, and value to me was zero.
> Perhaps some younger passengers might like what is
> now passing for dining car service simply because
> they never experienced what is possible but Amtrak
> should probably remember that there are 75 million
> aging "boomers" controlling 75% of the nation's
> disposable income and they really like to enjoy
> comfortable travel.
They prefer to fly or drive. Maybe not our preferred mode of travel, but unfortunately the reality. Us baby boomers will in the not too distant future, be unable to travel for financial or health reasons, then of course, it will be our time to proceed through the one-way "turnstile".(LOL)  Better to establish a cost effective transportation model that a new generation will embrace. They will be thinking about cost and convenience, not where their next meal is coming from and how it will be presented. I saw first hand the decline of rail passenger service and no amount of nostalgic haze could reverse the trend. Sure, Amtrak did manage to reverse some of the decline, but at a cost that exceeds the value received, at least for the LD trains. Amtrak was, and continues to be in the LD market, "novelty" transportation where it's services appeal to a very small segment of the travelling public. Sad but true. 

And remember, just because
> senior management now in place at Amtrak thinks
> this is a good way of treating paying customers,
> does not mean that it is the correct management
> decision, possibly they are examples of the Peter
> Principle or the Dunning-Kruger Effect, meaning
> that they don't know what they are doing.

According to you. Just an opinion based on the fact you don;t like the current operation...so therefore....it must be wrong. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/19 11:14 by ATSF3751.

ATSF3751 Wrote:

< Then, to add insult, you claimed the the Coast Starlight has 7-Eleven type food service. Don't look now, but your credibility has decided to take a long walk....without you. >

Another one with with severe reading comprehensions issues.
I said nothing of a kind. The context was sleeper-only lounge service was discarded there.
"Don't tell us the 7-Eleven food they are now serving is an upgrade of the diner service they were getting. " pertained to the CL and LSL.
 
<Are you diabetic? Do you travel without proper backup food and insulin in case of emergency? Might want to rethink your travel planning so you don't find yourself unprepared. Just sayin' >

Of course you deliberately missed the part that no one in coach can eat or drink anything bough on-board until at least 7pm (departs NY at 340 pm) right through a dinner period, then has no place to eat it, except carry it back to their coach seats, while a line forms in the other direction through the coaches, then can't understand why ridership declines due to poor food service. Any other Empire Service train that goes beyond Albany has an open snack bar, and it is open by Yonkers. So we have a situation on a LD train that is inferior to a Corridor train.

Ridership drops of various trains for various reasons, like OTP, for which the Empire Builder has gone through hell. CL and LSL also had serious food service downgrades and that can be attributable to their rider declines, or they would not have found it necessary to improve it slightly. It was obviously adversely affecting sleeper revenue. They do read CSI surveys, not FB posts.

The $3 million they stated they would save on these 2 trains last May is merely a rounding error on the fully allocated deficits of these two trains..

 



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 02/19/19 12:12 by joemvcnj.

On my recent CZ trip I met a woman who had connected from Boston.  I told her I had skipped that part of the trip due to the downgraded food service.  Turns out she’s a fairly regular transcontinental passenger who doesn’t fly for medical reasons.  Her solution to the food issue was to book business class on 449, as in her view the food choices were far better.  So in this one anecdotal example, Amtrak lost better than 50% of the revenue they could have had if she had booked a roomette as had been her previous habit.  Plus United, rather than Amtrak, got my business between Boston and Chicago, again because of the dining issue.

Dave

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ATSF3751 Wrote:
>
> < Then, to add insult, you claimed the the Coast
> Starlight has 7-Eleven type food service. Don't
> look now, but your credibility has decided to take
> a long walk....without you. >
>
> Another one with with severe reading
> comprehensions issues.
> I said nothing of a kind. The context was
> sleeper-only lounge service was discarded there.
> "Don't tell us the 7-Eleven food they are now
> serving is an upgrade of the diner service they
> were getting. " pertained to the CL and LSL.

Rather then address the issue with logic....you prefer insults. Way to go. Okay. I can go there. 


Here is your quote BTW. As you can see, your comments did not entirely pertain to the LSL and CL. Maybe you are the one who needs reading lessons. 


They pulled the Pacific Parlor Car off the Coast
> Starlight. That shows they don't give a damn about
> an exclusive car for those passengers.

(Ok...so far....so good. In your opinion of course.) 

Don't tell
> us the 7-Eleven food they are now serving is an
> upgrade of the diner service they were getting. 

(You linked together two unrelated items without an explanation....and we're all supposed to understand? Really?)


 
Mabye the issue is not my comprehension, but you're ability to compose a coherent paragraph, or to link two paragraphs together in a cohesive manner..





>  
> <Are you diabetic? Do you travel without proper
> backup food and insulin in case of emergency?
> Might want to rethink your travel planning so you
> don't find yourself unprepared. Just sayin' >
>
> Of course you deliberately missed the part that no
> one in coach can eat or drink anything bough
> on-board until at least 7pm (departs NY at 340 pm)
> right through a dinner period, then has no place
> to eat it, except carry it back to their coach
> seats, while a line forms in the other direction
> through the coaches, then can't understand why
> ridership declines due to poor food service. Any
> other Empire Service train that goes beyond Albany
> has an open snack bar, and it is open by Yonkers.
> So we have a situation on a LD train that is
> inferior to a Corridor train.

There are no rules against passengers eating or bringing food for their own consumption if there is a medical need. Period. I can just imagine a coach attendent taking away a diabetics food and the firestorm that would follow. Try again. You could have said that coach passengers may go hungry. That is valid and should be addressed. But implying that lives are endangered is a bit of a stretch and takes away from your argument. 
>
> Ridership drops of various trains for various
> reasons, like OTP, for which the Empire Builder
> has gone through hell. CL and LSL also had serious
> food service downgrades and that can be
> attributable to their rider declines, or they
> would not have found it necessary to improve it
> slightly. It was obviously adversely affecting
> sleeper revenue. They do read CSI surveys, not FB
> posts.

 Changes in service levels are an ongoing process. Good for "them" for adjusting the service. Kinda goes against the notion the "they" don't care. 

You say for certain that CL and LSL ridership declines are attributed to food service downgrades yet cannot prove this is factual, only an opinion on your part. 

The ridership drop on the Coast Starlight,is something that cannot be entirely attributed to food service changes. Further, if you wish to claim that the sleeper revenue (on that train) has declined due to service changes, such as the loss of the PPC, then any loss of patronage in the sleepers due to the removal of the PPC must be weighed against the reduced costs from the elimination of that car. Yes, sleeper revenue may be down, but if the PPC no longer operates, what sleeper patronage remains is now carried at reduced costs. The net return will then increase. Better to carry 20 sleeper patrons at break even, then 100 at a loss. 
>
> The $3 million they stated they would save on
> these 2 trains last May is merely a rounding error
> on the fully allocated deficits of these two
> trains..
>
>  
Maybe you could form a crowd funding site to put together $3 million to help offset the rounding error in order to restore full meal service.  After all, it's "merely" a rounding error. Chump change. Right?