Passenger Trains > Flight Shaming in Europe has people taking the train

Many people; especially in Sweden are concerned about their carbon footprint and are shaming the plane for the train

Perhaps Amtrak can have a carbon footprint gauge on their website so people can compare a train vs a plane’s carbon footprint

Start the shaming in places like NY, SEA,PDX, and California May catch on here

Interesting read

https://i.stuff.co.nz/travel/destinations/europe/114727713/europes-flightshame-movement-has-travelers-taking-trains-to-save-the-planet

Posted from iPhone

But you have to have trains ...

Posted from iPhone

Be careful what you start. If you have two or more people in your vehicle, you will beat an Amtrak LDT on being green. If you are comparing with AutoTrain, you really beat it!

Might be green in the air, but look at all the plastic dishes  and trash that is unloaded every few hours on a LD train.

carbon foot print is about the same for western long distance i read no advantage here, that staement i may have read here, but done during the f40 era, compare a  737 vs the cz for example?

Sweden is one of the largest European welfare states, period, which might explain why people have time to come up w/ BS like this, and, also for all the “virtue signal” folks who think they’re saving the world with their carbon footprint obsession.
“Fat” shaming — bad! “Airplane” shaming — good!
“Let’s shame ‘em back to the choo choo,” said one Swedish-hipster to the other! Too much time on their hands for sure...

amtrakbill Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Start the shaming in places like NY, SEA,PDX, and
> California May catch on here
>
> Interesting read

Thanks for the link. Quite a coincidence that I met a Swede recently and talked about trains in Sweden.

He told me that after the "privatization" of Swedish Railway in 1988, the quality of service has been in gradual decline. The "privatization" was necessary to reduce government debt, using the classic separation of operator and infrastructure. Some operators are profitable, but unprofitable segments (including "cargo" or freight) are still government-operated. They operate "higher speed" trains, 200 km/h (124 mph) top revenue speed.

Swedes are looking to modernize and expand their rail network, passenger and freight. They are yearning to open up commerce to the rest of Europe outside of Norway and Finland, but currently, trains are connected by a ferry bridge to Denmark (Copenhagen). Besides 300 km/h capable trains, they are looking for their own "Chunnel" to Denmark.

Suddenly, the motivations behind Elon Musk promoting Hyperloop in Sweden is clearer. Some of you might remember that from last year or year before.

The Swede I talked to basically echo'd the country's sentiment about using more trains and less airplanes to reduce the carbon footprint. I speculate that the ultimate motivation behind this narrative is not to "destroy" their airline industry as we might assume based on our lame game theory mentality, but to increase train ridership to justify the enormous expense to upgrade their rail network.

So trying to use Sweden's narrative to "shame the airplane" in the U.S. won't work, regardless of how we feel about "green" and carbon footprint. Besides, the airplane isn't the "enemy" anyway, it's the automobile.

IC_2024 Wrote:
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> Sweden is one of the largest European welfare
> states, period, which might explain why people
> have time 

Bet you're right! What with two weeks off at Xmas, a month off in the Summer, plus time-off for having a baby and then there are those holidays like the Lapp National Day. They're great for LD train rides but it makes one wonder why the Swedes are, as a whole, amongst the richest folks on earth. Do you think IKEA's little meat balls have something to do with it? 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/19 09:15 by RRBaron.

IC_2024 Wrote:
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> Sweden is one of the largest European welfare
> states, period, 

Tax rates can reach ~60% in Sweden. Japan's not too far behind approaching ~50%. That's probably how they fund the welfare. Sweden recently replaced their property tax with an affordable fee, the same amount for everyone. So the wealthy in Sweden got a tax break somewhere else. :-)

It's off topic, but I decided to ignore the American political rhetoric and did some research on Swedish economy and taxes. Their "billionaires per capita" is quite surprising (highest percentage in the Nordic region) and of course, some of them use tax shelters overseas to avoid the ~60% rate - I guess that's a global trend! Furthermore, some of the Japan's wealthy have taken residence in the U.S. to avoid their highest tax brackets, something I already know and don't need to research further. Just some tidbits to put things in perspective, although I'm definitely NOT saying we should do the same here.

So let’s sum up the arguments you all have put forward -

- Swedes care about global climate change and are trying to do something about it my modifying their own behavior.
- Swedes have a robust state structure to support public welfare...how subversive!
- Swedes get way too much time off work, including for such nefarious purposes as spending time to build strong families 
- They dabble in such left wing crazy behavior as privatization of some train services where some operators actually make, god forbid, a profit
- Yet, despite such wicked socialism, they are among the richest people in the world.  And even in such an environment, somehow some individuals have managed to build and retain substantial wealth.
- Oh, and their trains are pretty good, and yet they’re even trying to make them better.

Wow, those crazy Swedes....let’s do all we can in the US to ensure we never become like that.

And BTW, Cchan006, Sweden is connected to Denmark not by a “ferry bridge”, but by an actual bridge that carries both road and rail traffic.  Look up Oresund Bridge.

OK, enough....let’s all return to our fact-free existence!

Dave



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/04/19 07:01 by DavidP.

Don't NYC BOS and DC have among the lowest vehicle ownership rates in the US?

$5.50 to $6 per gallon of US gasoline can change how people view transportation

Posted from Android

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And BTW, Cchan006, Sweden is connected to Denmark
> not by a “ferry bridge”, but by an actual
> bridge that carries both road and rail traffic.
>  Look up Oresund Bridge.

I did 3 years ago, and forgot about it.

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4069569,4070781#407081

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Don't NYC BOS and DC have among the lowest vehicle
> ownership rates in the US?
>
> $5.50 to $6 per gallon of US gasoline can change
> how people view transportation
>
> Posted from Android

Maybe the fact that all three have extensive transit systems might have something to do with it.  If one can afford to live in those cities, $6 gas is the least of their problems.

IC_2024 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sweden is one of the largest European welfare
> states, period, which might explain why people
> have time to come up w/ BS like this, and, also
> for all the “virtue signal” folks who think
> they’re saving the world with their carbon
> footprint obsession.
> “Fat” shaming — bad! “Airplane” shaming
> — good!
> “Let’s shame ‘em back to the choo choo,”
> said one Swedish-hipster to the other! Too much
> time on their hands for sure...

There is another, perhaps more valid, way to look at Sweden....one of the most successful nations in the world.  Maybe it is because they have their affairs in order.....at least more in order  than most of the world....that they have the time, and mind space, to contemplate a better future, instead of the road to ruin we seem insistant on following.

AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There is another, perhaps more valid, way to look
> at Sweden....one of the most successful nations in
> the world.  Maybe it is because they have their
> affairs in order.....at least more in order  than
> most of the world....that they have the time, and
> mind space, to contemplate a better future,
> instead of the road to ruin we seem insistant on
> following.
>
> AA

During my look up of Sweden's economy and taxes, I found out they survived through a financial crisis in the 1990s. They had to abandon some of their "socialist" ideas to get out of that crisis. We didn't get that memo here, so it's no surprise stereotyping of Sweden continues. FYI, I visited Stockholm several years before that crisis hit.

There's no need to butter up the Swedes in response to IC_2024's comments, which kind of silly.

cchan, no need to talk them down, either.

AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

utwazoo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Don't NYC BOS and DC have among the lowest
> vehicle
> > ownership rates in the US?
> >
> > $5.50 to $6 per gallon of US gasoline can
> change
> > how people view transportation
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Maybe the fact that all three have extensive
> transit systems might have something to do with
> it.  If one can afford to live in those cities,
> $6 gas is the least of their problems.

That could be true of Stockholm, too.

If autonomous, on demand vehicles actually make it to prime time, that could kill off the second and third cars in many US families.

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So let’s sum up the arguments you all have put
> forward -
>
> - Swedes care about global climate change and are
> trying to do something about it my modifying their
> own behavior.
> - Swedes have a robust state structure to support
> public welfare...how subversive!
> - Swedes get way too much time off work, including
> for such nefarious purposes as spending time to
> build strong families 
> - They dabble in such left wing crazy behavior as
> privatization of some train services where some
> operators actually make, god forbid, a profit
> - Yet, despite such wicked socialism, they are
> among the richest people in the world.  And even
> in such an environment, somehow some individuals
> have managed to build and retain substantial
> wealth.
> - Oh, and their trains are pretty good, and yet
> they’re even trying to make them better.
>
> Wow, those crazy Swedes....let’s do all we can
> in the US to ensure we never become like that.
>
> And BTW, Cchan006, Sweden is connected to Denmark
> not by a “ferry bridge”, but by an actual
> bridge that carries both road and rail traffic.
>  Look up Oresund Bridge.
>
> OK, enough....let’s all return to our fact-free
> existence!
>
> Dave

You are so right Sir !
BTW we are all socialist in some form or other...!!! :):):)

DavidP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Wow, those crazy Swedes....let’s do all we can
> in the US to ensure we never become like that.
>
> OK, enough....let’s all return to our fact-free
> existence!
>
> Dave

I have a very simple solution for you, Hoss...move there.  Let us know how it works out for you.
 

ShortlinesUSA Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DavidP Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----

>
> I have a very simple solution for you, Hoss...move
> there.  Let us know how it works out for you.
>  
Clever argument Shortlines, but I’m sorry, I don’t engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.

Dave