Passenger Trains > Cardinal not getting VII Diner and second sleeper

Amtrak has yet to assign a Viewliner II dining car to the Cardinal although it indicated that it had planned to do so effective Oct. 1.

The Chicago-New York train received the flexible dining service on that date, but sleeping car passengers are being served in half of an Amfleet food service car rather than in a Viewliner II diner as is the case with other eastern overnight trains.
 
Amtrak’s new vice president for long distance services, Larry Chestler, told Trains magazine that the Viewliner II diner won’t be assigned to Nos. 50 and 51 “for the time being.”

Chestler said the Amfleet II lounge cars being used on the train, “are the most suitable for this service given the configuration of the cars and the Cardinal’s passenger volume.”

He probably was referring to the fact the Cardinal is assigned just one Viewliner sleeping car and that the onboard crew uses a portion of its rooms.

Amtrak has said that it has not assigned a second sleeper to the Cardinal because it has yet to repair a Viewliner sleeping car that was damaged in the February 2018 collision of the Silver Star and a CSX freight train.

At present, Amtrak has only one of 25 Viewliner II sleeping cars on its active roster. Those cars feature a different room configuration than Viewliner I sleepers.

Sleeper space aboard the Cardinal can be hard to book with rooms often selling out weeks and sometimes months in advance.

The Cardinal operates tri-weekly via Indianapolis and Cincinnati and uses two equipment sets.

Amtrak in the Heartland:
https://csanders429.wordpress.com/2019/10/13/viewliner-ii-diner-has-yet-

diners are being used as axle count cars, and test trains wtf .  trying to provide crappy cars whenever possible, amtrak mgmt is due for wholesale replacement, write your reps if you live on route?

If they are short 1 Viewliner sleeper, they can run 2 sleepers on one of the two train sets.

How many other Viewliner I cars are out of service aside from the one damaged on the Silver Star in 2018?

I look forward to seeing the Viewliner II Sleepers being used as axle count cars too.

they did say the long term goal is a single food service car on the eastern long distance trains which is the case with these Amfleet split cars. It could be that the long term goal is to modify the VL2 diners into a new configuration to serve all passengers from one food prep area with both crew members working together. the new airline style cart service being tried on Acela nonstop could be one of the things being considered for delivery of food. I would anticipate in this arrangement the seating in the food service car would be for sleeper passengers only. It does make logical sense to use the viewliner cars for this purpose simply because of their young age. If this is the plan it probably does make sense to keep some of them out of rotation until they figure out how to redesign the car. This is all my own theory based on them saying they want a single car and that event in Philly where they are looking for new ideas on how to deliver food to passengers. It could be that the silver star which has yet to receive the flex dining will be the eventual beta test for a single car format when it gets the flex dining.

Posted from iPhone

CARDINAL sleepers often  sold out.   Try  to book now  for  any holiday  period.  So this  train has  actually been downgraded.  Worse food. Where  are the  baggage  dorms in the  meantime?? Patronage on the  CARDINAL?  Not  bad for a   three times a week train Amtrak doesn't  really seem to want to  operate.

If Amtrak wants to modify the VL2 diners, they can look to Germany and the high speed trainsets there.  The food/beverage car has the "kitchen" in the center.  One end has about 26 seats for food service, using one attendant.  The other end of the car has an Amcafe counter for all carry-out items with 2nd attendant.  The meals I have eaten in the dining section were simple but properly prepared and quite adequate for daytime of eight hours plus.  

Larry Chester, quoted in the article, is new Amtrak VP from long distance services. Guess what, he has a flyboy resume...

He's a former Sun Country Airlines and MLT Vacations marketing executive!

It’s truly a waiting game now. Fight for the status quo on routes, services,  keep the new equipment on property (not sold off or remaining orders cancelled) keep Congress involved and hope a new Administration installs a leadership/board with sensible adult supervision.  I don’t see any other solution. 

Doesnt bode well for Silver Star getting a diner either. If they were going to it would have been done by now. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/19 09:35 by Flyer92122.

Flyer92122 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It’s truly a waiting game now. Fight for the
> status quo on routes, services,  keep the new
> equipment on property (not sold off or remaining
> orders cancelled) keep Congress involved and hope
> a new Administration installs a leadership/board
> with sensible adult supervision.  I don’t see
> any other solution. 
>
> Doesnt bode well for Silver Star getting a diner
> either. If they were going to it would have been
> done by now. 

The original Amtrak announcement for the Star was "some time in 2020".  No reason to panic--yet.
 

My WAG is the Cardinal is in spot # 1 on Delta Dick's hit list of LDT's to yank. I'd be surprised if it make 2 more time changes.

   IMHO-Ross Rowland 

Basically he had only half as many jobs as that sounds like. MLT and Sun Country, though separate corporately, were "joined at the hip."



PC1974 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Larry Chester, quoted in the article, is new
> Amtrak VP from long distance services. Guess
> what, he has a flyboy resume...
>
> He's a former Sun Country Airlines and MLT
> Vacations marketing executive!

Posted from Android

MEKoch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If Amtrak wants to modify the VL2 diners, they can
> look to Germany and the high speed trainsets
> there.  The food/beverage car has the "kitchen"
> in the center.  One end has about 26 seats for
> food service, using one attendant.  The other end
> of the car has an Amcafe counter for all carry-out
> items with 2nd attendant.  The meals I have eaten
> in the dining section were simple but properly
> prepared and quite adequate for daytime of eight
> hours plus.  

Those are the restaurant cars on the original ICE I trains and are scheduled to be phased out in the next few years. The replacements will be 1/2 the car with a restaurant and a handful of tables and high tops like the ICE II, III and 4 trainsets.

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How many other Viewliner I cars are out of service
> aside from the one damaged on the Silver Star in
> 2018?

That's the only ONE! It takes 39 Viewliners to fit the current operating schedule of single level sleeping cars needed for the Cardinal, Crescent, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, and Lake Shore Limited. That also includes NO same day turn of equipment in Sunnyside Yard that used to occur with at least ONE long distance train set. If needing more sleepers, they could cut and rotate some in Washington DC. But that's IF Amtrak wanted better utilization of these high end revenue cars. And they don't. Amtrak has a total of 50 Viewliner Cars. The damaged Viewliner Sleeper from 2018 (yes nearly a year old now) has been out of service and is repairable, but Amtrak has not exercised repairs. So there are 10 Viewliners as spares and available for maintenance rotations. Reducing that 10 to 8 (two for the Cardinal train sets) is not the end of the world and could be easily done, and HAS BEEN DONE in years past when the Cardinal operated with TWO Viewliner Sleepers. Amtrak has operated with 41 Viewliners in regular service without a problem. Again, right now they've reduced that DOWN to 39. No idea if this ONE Viewliner that's not been repaired is being held out for insurance review or other reasons. My suspicion is that it is not high on Amtrak's priority list to repair so they have sidelined it. They will soon get 25 Viewliner II sleepers that they claim they have no use for, so leave one Viewliner I sidelined so as to save money. It's actually listed on their roster as "STORED." This is the first VIEWLINER SLEEPER to ever receive this title. 

If Amtrak wanted to put a second Viewliner sleeper on the Cardinal, it would figure out a way to do it. But they don't. 

We had a whole big discussion on this earlier this month about the Cardinal not receiving a VIewliner II Diner, when it was supposed to. The scenery on this overnight LD train east of the Mississippi is the best and it would have likely increased in patronage with a descent "viewing car" like the Viewliner II Diner being used as a sleeper lounge now.

You can't do flexible dining and cafe service out of ONE car because there's not enough physical space to store the "flexible dining" food prep materials. Think about it..... This is prepared food and a single level car is not going to have the space for a 1) lounge, 2) cafe, 3) tables for passengers to eat their meals at. So this conversion stuff under current flexible dining pretenses is a bunch of BS. David Gunn had suggested a mix of regular diners and a combined diner/cafe, but the later for only certain routes but definitely not in the current F&B model. 

Only 11 Viewliner II Diners are in operation. 15 remain sidelined (15 includes the original prototype). There's no spares in Chicago or New Orleans just "hanging out" waiting for a point of failure on either the Crescent, Cardinal, or Lake Shore Limited. Or lets put it this way - there never was in the past and doesn't has to be going forward either. And if they are brand new cars, as opposed to Heritage Diners, should they really be breaking down to necessitate a "spare" being held at terminal? There are no Viewliner I sleeper spares in these cities. The spares or cars in for maintenance rotation are in NYP (at best) or most of the time Hialeah, FL. When a diner got bad-ordered, passengers had to make due with either a second Amfleet cafe/lounge, or the existing Amfleet cafe/lounge. Who are we kidding folks!

These Viewliner II Diners could make for descent lounge cars on the long distance day trains - for an upgraded fare. They don't even have to offer food, just tables and those double rows of windows. Make it a "Business Class Plus" fare and tack on so it's next to the business class car. If they are good enough to run in non-revenue axle count, they should be good enough to run in a "revenue plus" type program! Beautiful scenery in the Northeast and Middle Atlantic with fall foliage. But Amtrak has no use for these Viewliner II Diners. 

Amtrak's utilization of Viewliner Sleepers and Viewliner II Diners is absolutely crazy!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/14/19 16:18 by jp1822.

One new diner has been on the San Joaquins in axle cournt.!!

Not at this time huh, oh yeah sure, just an excuse on trying to dismantle Amtrak!

mundo Wrote:
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> One new diner has been on the San Joaquins in axle
> cournt.!!

The Silver Star not getting a Viewliner II Diner is just to stretch out that whole program of divorcing the F&B and reducing labor costs for F&B. 

OK, lets take the Vermonter as an example. Why couldn't - as a test for the fall leaf peeping season - put a regular full business class car on the Vermonter. Course leaf peeping season is now over, but that's another story. Then put a Viewliner II Diner behind the business class car. Anyone with a business class ticket gets to use the Viewliner Diner - its booth, tables, viewing etc. Wording could be added to the ticket - custom, touring, premium service allows you to also have access to the adjacent lounge car with a double row of windows for your viewing pleasure. Kitchen is closed and note used. If the Viewliner was full it would seat 48 passengers, give or take from the handicap table that was taken out. So now you've "added value" to the business class ticket. Currently business class ALWAYS sells out on the Vermonter between Essex-Jct/Burlington and NYP with the half and half split cafe/business car. Limited space for "through passengers" south of Springfield. I bet Amtrak could charge AT LEAST an extra $10 to $15 north of New Haven for passengers travelling in business class. That's on top of the regular and current business class ticket amount (special wording can be placed at booking site - Amtrak.com etc.) to explain this "added value." fee. Frankly I'd come up with a different name for this product for branding purposes (lose the "business class" name and re brand as something else). And from New Haven to Washington DC - travel on the NEC - you are getting business folks using the train to commute home and continuing their work day. They'd LOVE to have the table seating. They take over now in the limited lounge section of the Amfleet cafe section. With this combo of having a seat in the Amfleet low density business class car and flexibility to use the seating and viewing in the Viewliner II Diner, passengers would pay an extra $15 to $25. That's in addition to the current business fare charged. Passengers on the NEC are paying premium prices all the time for time of day and Acela Express etc. Amtrak would likely have to do a little advertising and education for onboard guests (God forbid). First come first serve in the Viewliner II Diner. Entrance through the vestibule end that is adjacent to the business class car. Conductor can be positioned by the business class Amfleet car. Amtrak could do testing with the prices, but an extra $10 to $15 for passenger travelling on the Vermonter through Vermont in leaf peeping season? It would sell. People are not travelling in business class for business in Vermont from say St. Albans to Brattleboro in most cases. Moreover, I've boarded with MANY passengers out of Essex Jct-Burlington since the Vermonter was inaugurated who are travelling all the way to NYP or Washington DC; these people are not travelling for business purposes, in the business class car. Rather, they are usually a couple or senior, just wanting a comfortable ride. Make this like VIA's Touring class, only they don't have to serve food. Amtrak makes at least an extra $1,500 instead of running the car in non-revenue axle count service while the odometer spins. Vermonter has two train sets, and there's an assignment for two Viewliner II Diners. 

This concept could work with the Pennsylvanian (and its business class car), the Palmetto, the Maple Leaf (even though just going to Niagara Falls), the Adirondack (it actually ran with the wrong cafe car for a period of time and had a half cafe and half business class assigned to it by accident and it had the dome car). 

- That would actually put 10 Viewliner II Diners in service (two train sets per train), in addition to the 11 that presently are assigned for Flexible Dining.
- It leaves a 20% in reserve (including the prototype Viewliner Diner).
- All trains except the Vermonter are based out of NYP.
- If needed Amtrak could knock one train off to have a Diner in reserve. When the Silver Star starts or other train needing Flexible Dining, one train loses its Viewliner Diner/Lounge:
- Gets the Viewliner Diners used in a positive customer experience. The Viewliner II Diner is rated for 125 mph service. 

1) Palmetto
2) Adirondack
3) Maple Leaf
4) Pennsylvanian
5) Vermonter
 
Amtrak should change the names of the Viewliner II Diners to Viewliner Lounge Car! No reconfiguration needed. Use car as is, kitchen is closed off (the doorway to kitchen gets locked and is kept empty.     

Customers get exposure to a better "viewing" and "working experience." It should bring about some good numbers in customer service and satisfaction as well..............It gets these cars bringing in something with revenue! Amtrak could even use the car out on the San Joaquin route IF it was on the single level equipment. I mean a VIewliner in California? Even if Amtrak is charging CA for the car, why couldn't CA try to gain some money back by including this into the business class car program as mentioned above. 

If not using as Diners, why not as Lounges. ONE car is not going to cause any of these consists to put another locomotive or motor at the head-end, and I don't buy that its extra fuel expense. Amtrak has more of a problem with all the cars its towing around for nothing just to meet axle count. That's a bigger issue to deal with. How on earth would a DMU be allowed on various routes?  

There is an article in the Oct 17 Railwayage online stating the Diners have been removed from eastern trains. He is either mistaken or referring not to the actual physical Viewliner II diners turned plastic tray meal in a lounge car, just referring to the downgraded quality and their not truly being dining cars, right? They are physically - now as it is after Oct 1- still running these cars on the LSL, Meteor, and Crescent right? And maybe on Cardinal and Star later?

So stupid overall...