Passenger Trains > Study for more service west of Harrisburg

Story from the Johnstown newspaper - pipe dream more than likely

A study currently being conducted by Norfolk Southern Corp. represents “the first important, critical step” toward the expansion of passenger rail service through Johnstown, according to the PennDOT official who oversees rail policy.

The goal of the study is to determine what improvements need to be made to Norfolk Southern’s tracks between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg before a second daily round-trip passenger train could be run over those tracks, said Jennie Granger, PennDOT’s deputy secretary for multimodal transportation, on Monday afternoon at a luncheon at Holiday Inn Johnstown-Downtown hosted by the Cambria Regional Chamber.

Johnstown’s only current passenger rail service is provided by Amtrak’s Pennsylvanian train, which makes one round trip per day between New York City and Pittsburgh. Because the Pennsylvanian heads west from Johnstown to Pittsburgh in the evening and east from Pittsburgh to Johnstown in the morning, passengers can’t travel by train from Johnstown to Pittsburgh and back in one day.

Area legislators, business leaders, members of advocacy groups and other interested parties have spoken often in recent years about the benefits that more passenger rail service could bring to the Johnstown region.

For example, a second daily round-trip passenger train, if scheduled at the right time, could allow Johnstown residents to commute to work in Pittsburgh in the morning and return home at night.

“There’s also the reverse effect,” state Sen. Wayne Langerholc Jr., R-Richland Township, said on Monday, suggesting that increased passenger rail service could also accommodate Pittsburghers who want to travel to Johnstown and points east. “We have a ton of excellent festivals, excellent recreational opportunities, excellent things that could draw people from the western part of the state. They could come here, they could recreate, they could spend their disposable income, which will greatly benefit our local economy.”

The portion of the Pennsylvanian’s route between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh is run over Norfolk Southern’s Pittsburgh Line.

“Amtrak runs one train a day, round-trip, which is not near enough frequency,” Granger said. “The issue at hand is, because Norfolk Southern owns that track, they can say who does not run on it. If they don’t want Amtrak on it, they don’t have to let them run another train a day. That’s all there is to it.”

PennDOT recently asked Amtrak, Granger said, to explore the nuts and bolts of adding another daily passenger train: “What would it take? What would a second round-trip train a day look like? Give us a timetable. Ideally, how would this work with the ‘Keystone’ trains on the eastern part of the state? How would we make it work with Penn Station, going into New York?”

Amtrak came back to Penn-

DOT with a proposed timetable, and PennDOT provided that proposed timetable to Norfolk Southern. Norfolk Southern’s response, as Granger put it on Monday, was, “In order for us to tell you if we’ll allow this or not, and what it would take, you need to pay us to do this study.”

“The study itself is a lot like a traffic study,” Granger said. “It takes into account their freight movements, both historically and what they’re projecting going forward … and then, how does that interact with our proposed two trains a day?”

Granger expects to receive the results of the study in the second half of 2020.

“I anticipate Norfolk Southern will come back to (PennDOT) in 10 months or so,” she said, “and say, ‘We’ve completed our study, and here’s a list of capital improvements that we would need to see implemented before we could allow this to happen.’ … Once we get that information in 2020, we’ll have a better-educated idea of how to proceed with that service.”

Posted from iPhone

Seems to me that when I moved into my freshman dorm at Penn State in 2003, there were two round trips a day between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh (with one continuing on to/from Chicago as the Three Rivers).  So what's the problem?  I would think freight traffic volume is lower in the PSR era, and the capacity of the infrastructure hasn't changed much.

I agree Pennsy, I mean how hard is it just to restore a 2ND frequency!

NS took advantage of the Three Rivers discontinuance to renegotiate Harrisburg-Pittsburgh service with Amtrak. About 25 min was added to the Pennsylvanian's schedule, and NS probably set forth basic requirements that would need to be met
before another Amtrak could be added.
Andy

Posted from Android

This "study" is so bogus.  Its simply an opportunity for NS come up with some items they would like PA to pay for that will have little or no relevance to adding a 2nd train.  This has become SOP for host roads looking to be essentially bribed into allowing more service.  They all claim that any additional service will cause the sky to fall on their operations unless they get a zillion new infrastructure investments.  Its all BS usually.  Maybe PA should counter by threatening to use its eminent domain powers to seize the NS line.  Screw them.

PennDOT has several issues to resolve before it will fund another train between Pittsburgh and Harrisburg.  The biggest one is the lawsuit which seeks to cut off the funding spigot from the Pennsylvania Turnpike Authority.  The Turnpike diverts a significant amount of toll money, about a half billion each year,  to fund rail and bus service in the Commonwealth, and that has been fought in the courts.

 https://www.mcall.com/opinion/mc-opi-pa-turnpike-toll-increase-muschick-20190718-mx3mhocbuvgx3exlbdkhcxwayi-story.html

 

I agree with all the above.  There were at least 10 trains each way per day in 1970.  What a phony study.  Veiled bribery on the part of the operating railroads.  

They should start with extending any new train west of PGH on the B&O via Akron or PRR/NYC via Cleveland.to Chicago.   OR even better use the old PRR, and repair the railroad west of Bucyrus, OH to Gary, IN.  

It would be great to have a second train restored to the Broadway route west of Harrisburg. If it does start anywhere, it would probably be best to start it at least in Philadelphia. Starting it in Philadelphia will enable an additional rail option from one of the largest metropolitan areas in the Northeast. The major Amtrak yard and maintenance facility is in Philadelphia, not Harrisburg. It would be even better if the train started in New York City but with the contraints underneath the North River Tunnels as well as with Portal Draw, this may be a challenge.

MEKoch Wrote:
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> I agree with all the above.  There were at least 10 trains each way per day in 1970.  What a phony study.  Veiled bribery on the part of the operating railroads.  
>

As much as I'd like there to be more frequencies for passenger trains on that route, the Reality is that miles and miles of third and fourth tracks are at best razor blades and lawn mulch since 1970.

Brian

Another example of what happens when a train gets cancelled and States what to restore the frequency. And this is the Anderson model - to get more corridor/state sponsored trains running, but how to deal with, and negotiate with, the host railroads. First mistake was discontinuing the Broadway Limited. Second mistake was doing it again as the Three Rivers. Amtrak did get the Skyline Connection in the timetable and wheels nearly turning before NS pulled the plug last minute. Think about what would have been with these three trains operating:

1) Traditional early morning terminal departures from Philly and Pittsburgh.
2) Afternoon departure from Philly and Pittsburgh.
3) Evening/overnight departure from Philly and Pittsburgh. 

Passfanatic Wrote:
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> It would be great to have a second train restored
> to the Broadway route west of Harrisburg. If it
> does start anywhere, it would probably be best to
> start it at least in Philadelphia. Starting it in
> Philadelphia will enable an additional rail option
> from one of the largest metropolitan areas in the
> Northeast. The major Amtrak yard and maintenance
> facility is in Philadelphia, not Harrisburg. It
> would be even better if the train started in New
> York City but with the contraints underneath the
> North River Tunnels as well as with Portal Draw,
> this may be a challenge.

I agree. The Ft. Wayne line is so low on traffic.

Posted from Android

choodude Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> MEKoch Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I agree with all the above.  There were at
> least 10 trains each way per day in 1970.  What a
> phony study.  Veiled bribery on the part of the
> operating railroads.  
> >
>
> As much as I'd like there to be more frequencies
> for passenger trains on that route, the Reality is
> that miles and miles of third and fourth tracks
> are at best razor blades and lawn mulch since
> 1970.
>
> Brian

I believe that Norfolk Southern should be able to accommodate one or two more passenger trains in each direction on its Pittsburgh Line.  That said, train volume maps show vastly higher freight activity on the Pittsburgh Line in current times than during the Penn Central era. 

I watch Vitual Railfan Paradise PA camera a lot. There is no freight during the day between Harrisburg-Philly. Only 4 Amtrak a day. Strasburg Railroad used to get there freight delivery to their receiving track in the afternoon. Now NS does it at 3-4 am.

How much traffic between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh freight wise?

Posted from iPhone

This thread is an excellent beginning to the consideration of a second daily Pennsy service.  Additionally, such a second service could (should?) be considered with a daily connecting service from PIT to CHI to PIT with stops in eastern Ohio, Columbus, Lima, Fort Wayne and perhaps Valparaiso, IN.

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I watch Vitual Railfan Paradise PA camera a lot.
> There is no freight during the day between
> Harrisburg-Philly. Only 4 Amtrak a day. Strasburg
> Railroad used to get there freight delivery to
> their receiving track in the afternoon. Now NS
> does it at 3-4 am.
>
> How much traffic between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh
> freight wise?
>
> Posted from iPhone

Amtrak runs 14 trains in each direction on weekdays between Philly and Harrisburg.
NS runs freights on the Keystone Corridor in Lancaster during the day.

NYC4096 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> This thread is an excellent beginning to the
> consideration of a second daily Pennsy service. 
> Additionally, such a second service could
> (should?) be considered with a daily connecting
> service from PIT to CHI to PIT with stops in
> eastern Ohio, Columbus, Lima, Fort Wayne and
> perhaps Valparaiso, IN.

Engaging OH WV and IN in this project might be difficult.

CPRR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I watch Vitual Railfan Paradise PA camera a lot.  There is no freight during the day between Harrisburg-Philly. Only 4 Amtrak a day. Strasburg Railroad used to get there freight delivery to their receiving track in the afternoon. Now NS  does it at 3-4 am.
>
> How much traffic between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh freight wise?

I believe there are 8 Amtrak round trips Monday through Friday between Harrisburg and Philadelphia.

The Virtual Railfan Horseshoe Curve web cam landing page says approximately 50 per day.

NS through freight traffic between Harrisburg and points east use the ex Reading route.  So you won't see it on the Paradise PA cam.

Brian



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/19 16:22 by choodude.

Thx Brian

choodude Wrote:
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> I believe there are 8 Amtrak round trips Monday through Friday between Harrisburg and Philadelphia.

There are 13 Keystone round trips each weekday + the Pennsylvanian. 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> choodude Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I believe there are 8 Amtrak round trips Monday through Friday between Harrisburg and Philadelphia.
>
> There are 13 Keystone round trips each weekday +  the Pennsylvanian. 

Opps!  So there is:

https://www.amtrak.com/content/dam/projects/dotcom/english/public/documents/timetables/Keystone-Service-Schedule-092319.pdf

Brian