Passenger Trains > Montana AMTK over MRL

https://www.ktvq.com/news/missoula-county/efforts-to-restore-amtrak-route-across-southern-montana-gains-momentum

This would bring passenger service to Billings, Livingston, Butte? and Missoula.

So how do the folks over at MRL feel about this? Not to mention their BNSF landlords.

BNSF has run AMTK 7 & 8 across the hi line thru Havre and Whitefish so a lo line train would be nothing new.

A few generations of management back when asked about passenger service MRL said they would operate any service that could turn a profit.

NP passenger stations across the system still exist and are in use.

I, for one, would love to see the North Coast Hiawatha restored. I rode the last 'complete train' that left Chicago on September 30, 1979.

Restoring that route, or any other, has to overcome significant hurdles: money, equipment, and NIMBYs.  Both MRL and BNSF would have to agree to run the train and would want a chunk of cash to improve the line, etc.  I don't know if PTC is on that line.  If not, throw in a BIG chunk of change.  Amtrak is short of equipment right now.  So it's years and lots of dollars until more equipment arrives.  Then there's the NIMBYs.  Given successful push-back by the northern Chicago suburbs to stop Amtrak from adding a couple of Hiawathas to Milwaukee, and the numerous unsuccessful attempts to stop Brightline, rest assured, the NIMBYS won't stop until they are broke!  Of course, Amtrak lawyers to fight them aren't cheap, either.

 

Pishposh - No equipment, unless they go triweekly with the Builder... === === = === JLH

Every so often out in the Last Best Place the idea of bringing back the NCH is floated by some group in Montana. So many obstacles to over come and the idea usually dies a slow death. Mr. Burns wouldn't it have to run through Helena since Homestake is pretty much OOS. We lived in Helena in the sixties and seventies and we got to ride the Mainstreeter and North Coast Limited, on the NCL we rode from Butte to Chicago round trip. I have have been a frequent Amtrak rider till Father Time caught up with me but would say this would  be one of the more scenic lines to ride if this dream ever came true.

""said they would operate any service that could turn a profit."  There's the show-stopper.
 

highgreengraphics Wrote:
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> Pishposh - No equipment, unless they go triweekly
> with the Builder... === === = === JLH

Suspend reality for a bit.
Just don’t combine at Spokane. Portland section continues east via MRL till Fargo, ND or Minneapolis. No extra equipment except a lounge for the Portland section. Add coaches if demand requires.

Posted from iPhone

You mean diner for Portland section. It already has a lounge.

Posted from Android

howeld Wrote:
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> highgreengraphics Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Pishposh - No equipment, unless they go
> triweekly
> > with the Builder... === === = === JLH
>
> Suspend reality for a bit.
> Just don’t combine at Spokane. Portland
> section continues east via MRL till Fargo, ND or
> Minneapolis. No extra equipment except a lounge
> for the Portland section. Add coaches if demand
> requires.

What would running time Fargo - Portland on the NP/MRL be, and could it make same day turn in Portland without a 6th train set ? 

Worked this route for Amtrak in the 70s.  This is where the population of Montana lives and many major tourist attractions.  And coal traffic is off big time, so there is sufficient capacity.  

But the state governments of Montana & North Dakota need to buy into any plan.  Plus the chambers of commerce from Billings, Livingston, Bozeman, Helena & Missoula have to have loud active voices.  The politicians will ignore any call for train service, until they realize that there is a broad based group who want train service.  Suddenly their eyes are opened and they speak in favor of it.  

Almost no bus service remains except local lines.  

Yes, we know that the railroads will come forth with their usual blackmail demands.  Ignore them and they will also fall into line, when senators, representatives, mayors, and local groups speak with one voice for passenger trains.  

Do not expect any support from Amtrak.  They are toothless and stupid - Gardner, et al.  And they will come forward with every excuse why the train service cannot happen (money, equipment, stations, etc.).  

highgreengraphics Wrote:
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> Pishposh - No equipment, unless they go triweekly with the Builder... 
>
...or 4 days via Empire Builder / 3 days via the North Coast Hiawatha (maintaining daily service between Chicago and the Twin cities) as was done in the late 1970's:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19780730&item=0043
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/20 10:04 by SAAP.

HoosierVirg Wrote:
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> ...(I) would say this would  be one of the
> more scenic lines to ride if this dream ever came
> true.

Absolutely right. The southern route goes along wide-open river valleys with huge mountain ranges off in the distance practically the whole way, as opposed to the high line, which is treeless prairie until you get to the western couple of hundred miles at Glacier Park. It's so scenic I don't even mind driving the whole way on I-90.

Ok I have a question ? Going East From Spokane is it the same line until Sandpoint then it’s splits to the former GN and NP lines ? If so then add a Diner to the PDX section and send it over the Former NCH line right ? Just a thought. So if someone wanted to go from PDX to WFH just change trains in SPK makes sense right ?

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/20 19:43 by Pioneer2526.

The Southern Montana route could turn into quite a productive run attracting passengers from the Northern Rockies, as well as mid-North Dakota, Wyoming and Colorado.
There are 15-16 lucrative cities in Montana and North Dakota alone capable of developing a reasonable amount of traffic.

At Billings, MT a 50+ seat bus feeder connection coinciding with the Amtrak schedule east and westbound could provide round trip service to/from Sheridan, Buffalo, Casper and Cheyenne, WY; Ft Collins, Longmont and Denver, CO.  

East of MSP en route to/from MKE and Chicago, the train could serve several reasonably large North Central Wisconsin cities never served by Amtrak.   Those cities are Eau Clare, Merrillan, Wisconsin Rapids, Stevens Point, Neenah (Appleton, Green Bay bus connection) and Fond du Lac.  The substantial Fox River Valley population between Fond du Lac and Green Bay opens up a very lucrative opportunity for passengers heading to MKE, Chicago and beyond and all points west.

I wonder if Amtrak would call the proposed train The North Coast Hiawatha?

Reference - Wisconsin DOT Rail Map:
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/doing-bus/freight/rail.aspx



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/03/20 22:14 by NYC4096.

Don't forget Yellowstone Park, who ought to re-establish their Shuttle bus service form Livingston and Bozeman. Probably not much point in doing it with I-94 service down to 1 or 2 Jefferson Line buses per day. The rationale for removing the NCH is 1979 was 4 Greyhound Chicago - Seattle frequencies. Greyhound has since self-destructed. 

BRAtkinson Wrote:
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> Restoring that route, or any other, has to
> overcome significant hurdles: money, equipment,
> and NIMBYs. 

Why would there be NIMBYs opposing another train on Montana Rail Link?  It's not like train service is being reactivated on a right-of-way which has been dormant.  If its just one train in each direction per day, why would anyone object? 

RuleG Wrote:
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> BRAtkinson Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Restoring that route, or any other, has to
> > overcome significant hurdles: money, equipment,
> > and NIMBYs. 
>
> Why would there be NIMBYs opposing another train
> on Montana Rail Link?  It's not like train
> service is being reactivated on a right-of-way
> which has been dormant.  If its just one train in
> each direction per day, why would anyone object? 

You obviously haven't dealt with NIMBY's before...   Logic is not their strong suit.

I'm not so sure that NIMBYs are a factor in Big Sky country.
Have you seen the size of some of these Montana guy's backyards?  Said laughing!

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Don't forget Yellowstone Park, who ought to
> re-establish their Shuttle bus service form
> Livingston and Bozeman. Probably not much point in
> doing it with I-94 service down to 1 or 2
> Jefferson Line buses per day. The rationale for
> removing the NCH is 1979 was 4 Greyhound Chicago -
> Seattle frequencies. Greyhound has since
> self-destructed. 

Good point, Joe.  Yellowstone Park to Amtrak is another of many shuttle and bus feeder opportunities on this route. If service is resumed the former NCH route could become as popular as the CZ with both summer attractions and winter traffic from skiers and snowboarders.  One of the west's premier ski areas Big Sky https://bigskyresort.com/ is only 30 miles from Bozeman, MT.  With proper marketing, the proposed train could something unique.