Passenger Trains > Muni: new $89M rider-info system while floppy-disks run trains

Muni getting new rider-information system at $89 million, while ancient, floppy-disk computers route trains

San Francisco Chronicle

Phil Matier Sep. 16, 2020 


Muni is on track to award an $89 million contract for a new, state-of-the-art system to inform riders when the next bus or train will arrive. At the same time, the downtown Muni Metro train routing system still runs on floppy disks and is so antiquated that managers can barely find spare parts or qualified technicians to keep it running.

 “It’s like a bridge that is being held together by bubble gum and duct tape,” said San Francisco County Transportation Authority chairman and Supervisor Aaron Peskin.

 Muni spokeswoman Kristen Holland took a softer tone, likening the aged system to a vintage car.

 “Just like a vintage car, as the system passes a certain age it gets increasingly difficult and costly to maintain,” Holland said. “Parts become scarce, and the number of people who have the expertise in maintaining the system dwindle over time.”

 Installed in the 1990s, the automated system controls trains in the tunnel between the Embarcadero and West Portal stations. During peak weekday commutes, that’s about 30 trains an hour.

 And to ride the vintage car analogy a little further, new operators who grew up driving the computer equivalent of an automatic must be taught how to pump a clutch.

 In Muni’s case, the clutch controls a system that uses floppy disks. So operators have to learn complex, out-of-date computer techniques.

 It’s not easy.

 “Our current transportation controller graduation rate is 40% to 50%,” Holland said.

 Another challenge? Obtaining spare parts.

 The fear of being unable to find those parts has Muni constantly scouring suppliers and other transit systems for parts before they vanish all together. As insurance, Muni stocks up on spare parts and mines parts from transit agencies that are replacing their antiquated systems with newer equipment.

 “This buys us time, but is a clear signal that we need to upgrade,” Holland said.

 Peskin said he’s been aware of the system’s fragility since 2007, when he took a tour of the control center following the opening of T-Third Street light rail line, which started running more than a year late and more than $120 million over budget.

 “It turned out that they were driving pickup trucks down to Los Angeles to pick up parts being stripped from L.A.’s transit lines,” Peskin said.

 But Muni Director Jeffrey Tumlin says that while the system needs to be replaced, he isn’t ready to sound the alarm.

 “The train control system isn’t a looming crisis,” Tumlin said. “Yes, it runs on DOS loaded from 5¼-inch floppy disks, but it’s still serviceable.

 “That said, investing in a new train control system will bring big advantages to the system. I hope it to be one of the signature projects of my tenure,” he said.

 The 2020 Muni Reliability Working Group recommended replacing the transit control system within five to seven years.

 Money for a new control system has been folded into a larger $300 million project to modernize the entire light rail system.

 “Replacement of the train control system is in our current capital plan, and we are on track to complete it on time, provided we secure additional capital funds to complete the work,” Tumlin said.

 The Muni director is right to say the threat of a computer collapse is not imminent because Muni Metro is closed right now and will likely stay that way until the end of the year. A botched repair job on the overhead wires triggered a closure in August.

 That brought the trains to a stop just days after they had started running again after being closed for five months during the coronavirus pandemic shutdown, when Muni operations were reduced to core service.

 Muni used the five-month break to repair overhead wires, only to have the system go down after two newly installed connectors, also known as splices, failed. It was later determined the new splices were faulty.

 The agency has since placed an emergency order for 200 splices from a new vendor to replace at least 70, and possibly all 154, of the existing connectors. The repairs will likely take until the end of the year. 


Meanwhile, Muni is also on track to award a 16-year contract for a Next Generation Customer Information System to deliver state-of-the-art, real-time information to Muni riders about when the next bus or train will arrive.


The system will include larger, graphical signs at bus shelters and rail stations, solar-powered signs to expand sign coverage throughout the city, and a new multilingual, profile-based trip planning and mobile payment app.

 Great information to have, but only if the trains are running. And that won’t happen if the floppy disks flop.



https://www.sfchronicle.com/bayarea/philmatier/article/Muni-getting-new-rider-information-system-at-89-15570164.php

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GenePoon Wrote:
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>  But Muni Director Jeffrey Tumlin says that while
> the system needs to be replaced, he isn’t ready
> to sound the alarm.
>
>  “The train control system isn’t a looming
> crisis,” Tumlin said. “Yes, it runs on DOS
> loaded from 5¼-inch floppy disks, but it’s
> still serviceable.

Must be a fairly robust design, still functioning, and that's no sarcasm. Oh my god, floppy disks! Manual transmissions! (off topic, but with proper use and maintenance, manual transmissions are far less costly, and far OUTLAST automatic transmissions - sucks for people who can't drive one)

With DMV's computer upgrade fiasco, as well as California State's incomplete Fi$cal project, let's hope MUNI doesn't fall into the blind "upgrade! progress!" trap and cause another fia$co. Hope they find ways to properly upgrade the system.

Sounds like the SpaceShuttle...

Bill Deaver
Tehachapi, CA

One does wonder a bit, how much of this is the bad old bureaucratic game of "crying poor" in order to shake loose more taxpayer money.

Is that the 5.5" floppies or the 3" diskettes ?

Posted from Android

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> Is that the 5.5" floppies or the 3" diskettes ?

"Floppy" Disks or "Diskettes" come in 8", 5¼" or 3 1/2" varieties.  Not sure where you're getting 5.5" or 3" from.
 

So long ago, I forgot the exact measurements. 

Info system that tells riders when next train or bus is due.

I will give this advice for free, as my father gave it to me when I was a young man
starting to date girls.  Advice in case the relationship failed.

You just have to reverse it.

"Women are like streetcars, there is always another one coming along."

>
> Must be a fairly robust design, still functioning,
> and that's no sarcasm. Oh my god, floppy disks!
> Manual transmissions! (off topic, but with proper
> use and maintenance, manual transmissions are far
> less costly, and far OUTLAST automatic
> transmissions - sucks for people who can't drive
> one)
>
> With DMV's computer upgrade fiasco, as well as
> California State's incomplete Fi$cal project,
> let's hope MUNI doesn't fall into the blind
> "upgrade! progress!" trap and cause another
> fia$co. Hope they find ways to properly upgrade
> the system.

in addition to it being robust, the chances of some 17 year old hacker being able to break in and write his own DOS script are nil. 
Leave it alone. Upgrade doesn't always mean better.

zoohogger Wrote:
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> in addition to it being robust, the chances of
> some 17 year old hacker being able to break in and
> write his own DOS script are nil. 
> Leave it alone. Upgrade doesn't always mean
> better.

It's not difficult to design an "upgrade" that's a closed system, free from hacking. Problem is, today's young "programmers" are not as good as people believe them to be, so they'll insist on a "new paradigm" and insist on using programming tools they are familiar with, rather than using the appropriate tools and designing a system based on functionality.

However, I'm sure the tech stupid managers will insist on some remote access tools for the routing system, so they can watch it "wirelessly" from their overpriced corner office. That's how you invite hackers.

So yeah, leaving it alone does avoid all the potential stupidity.

If it works don't fix it - unless a fix is required by a government agency.

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> It's not difficult to design an "upgrade" that's a
> closed system, free from hacking. Problem is,
> today's young "programmers" are not as good as
> people believe them to be, so they'll insist on a
> "new paradigm" and insist on using programming
> tools they are familiar with, rather than using
> the appropriate tools and designing a system based
> on functionality.

Developers often want to use tools that will improve their skills for their next job.  Not only will getting spun up on some ancient language take time and cost the employer money, but it might also hurt future job prospects.  Maintain legacy systems can lead to a form of job security, but it also tends to not get one a big silicon valley payday.

This of course assumes the worst case scenario.  Whatever MUNI is using is likely written in C and is probably closed source and not something that can be developed any further.

>
> However, I'm sure the tech stupid managers will
> insist on some remote access tools for the routing
> system, so they can watch it "wirelessly" from
> their overpriced corner office. That's how you
> invite hackers.
>
> So yeah, leaving it alone does avoid all the
> potential stupidity.

mbrotzman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Developers often want to use tools that will
> improve their skills for their next job.  Not
> only will getting spun up on some ancient language
> take time and cost the employer money, but it
> might also hurt future job prospects.  Maintain
> legacy systems can lead to a form of job security,
> but it also tends to not get one a big silicon
> valley payday.

Yup, I'm aware of that. These new jobs are more about fluff (social media, web sites, finances) rather than about how to properly operate hardware (devices, machinery, streetcars), and the software industry in its rush for quick bucks abandoned what's important.

There was an inresting analysis on program language desirability recently (based on pay), and "old" languages like C, C++, Object C (for Apple people), still ranked pretty high, because that skill set, even if not the latest fad, is still very desirable.

> Whatever MUNI is using is likely written in C and
> is probably closed source and not something that
> can be developed any further.

If MUNI kept the source code for the routing system, that shouldn't be too difficult to reproduce in a newer platform that doesn't require compiled code. If they didn't, or can't find the original group that wrote it, they might consider reverse engineering (there are folks who do that very well), and that shouldn't be a problem, since they are supposed to own the rights to the software. I foresee problems after problems if they decided to start from scratch.

There is plenty of market space for fluff free programming. Aerospace, Health Care and Financial markets want software that process data securely and accurately - and are not as fluffy as the front end software for the public. When lives are on the line and fines are in place for being non-compliant the software has to work without fluff.

That being said, there are systems in those markets that are also behind the current OS versions due to a lack of modern replacements. Embedded XP survived "end of life" due to ATMs and medical devices. I expect Win7 will be the next "end of life" to be kept alive by these markets. Sometimes the life cycle on an OS is shorter than the approval cycle on replacement software.