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Passenger Trains > ca hsr cost estimate.........


Date: 10/16/20 07:00
ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: goneon66




Date: 10/16/20 08:52
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: RRBaron

In my opinion, poltical "fake news" screeds do not belong on TOs...just saying. One can just as easily say the same negative things about California's Freeway System, only the smog it produces, that gives the San Joaquin Valley some of the worst air in the USA, may gag one before they can get a word out.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/16/20 20:27 by RRBaron.



Date: 10/17/20 15:27
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: SanDiegan

Not "fake" news. Most of this has already been reported in the Los Angeles Times over the past several years. This is the reason Train Riders Association of California (TRAC), responsible for the bond measures that funded California's rail program, now opposes this project. See www.calirailnews.com for articles outlining better ways to spend the money. I am a California taxpayer who supports rail projects, but there is no excuse for the corrupt mismanagement of this project. Sadly, nothing new in California. Panning on leaving the state soon.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/17/20 15:32 by SanDiegan.



Date: 10/17/20 15:56
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: will74205

The ~$100 Billion figure is in Year-Of-Expenditure dollar, assuming completion of Phase 1 in 2033. To date the total money spent by CH SR is around $10Billion.

The way I see it, more public support = more money sooner = cost estimate, YOE figure, drops. So if a person opposed CHSR and cost rose, it is a self-fulfilling prophesy.

LA Times HSR articles by Ralph Vartabedian were biased against CHSR: reporting all the negatives, no matter how minute or how common they were compare to other projects, but little positives. 



Date: 10/17/20 17:42
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: RRBaron

My point exactly. The LA Times and other papers routinely post OP-ED columns from corporate-funded "think tanks" (CATO, Pacific Legal, etc.) that have axes to grind--particularly anti environment. The Times does this to appear "balanced" . Tink-tanks do it by cleverly stating only one side of an idea in intellectual sounding jargon.  The entire industrial First World either has HSR, is building HSR or is planning HSR, except the US of A. Just like the entire world uses the very simple Metric System while only, I think, the USA and Liberia are hold-outs for the British System of measure--that even the Brits don't "officially" use any longer. So-called "American Exceptional-ism" even blinds us to the environmental benefits of that greatest of British inventions--The Railway.



Date: 10/17/20 17:50
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: CarolVoss

RRBaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My point exactly. The LA Times and other papers
> routinely post OP-ED columns from corporate-funded
> "think tanks" (CATO, Pacific Legal, etc.) that
> have axes to grind--particularly anti environment.
> The Times does this to appear "balanced" .
> Tink-tanks do it by cleverly stating only one side
> of an idea in intellectual sounding jargon.  The
> entire industrial First World either has HSR, is
> building HSR or is planning HSR, except the US of
> A. Just like the entire world uses the very simple
> Metric System while only, I think, the USA and
> Liberia are hold-outs for the British System of
> measure--that even the Brits don't "officially"
> use any longer. So-called "American
> Exceptional-ism" even blinds us to the
> environmental benefits of that greatest of British
> inventions--The Railway.

Vartabedian is an LA Times reporter following this topic---- his articles are not op-ed think tank produced.
C

Carol Voss
San Jose, CA



Date: 10/17/20 20:13
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: RRBaron

CarolVoss Wrote:
> Vartabedian is an LA Times reporter following this
> topic---- his articles are not op-ed think tank
> produced.
> C

Indeed, he still works for the LA Times although no longer as a regular reporter. However, his philosophy is straight out of the same misguided playbook of the Cato Institute and the like. It got him the Loeb Award. Named after a founder of E.F.Hutton, the Loeb Journalism Award is given to writers that "inform & protect private investors". However government services are not private businesses. Many such preform services that do not make a direct profit. But these services, like the USPS (until recently), help businesses and individuals get on with their work making wealth and and their lives. California State High Speed Rail  is a public service like the others mentioned. Running government like "a business" got us where we are today on the brink of disaster because many real life issues, like COVID-19, know nothing of business. 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/20 17:35 by RRBaron.



Date: 10/18/20 05:51
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: jcaestecker

Anyone who believes that the state of CA will be able to skillfully and honestly see this through to completion for less than $100 billion deserves to keep pumping his or her tax dollars to Sacramento.  As I've said before, this project has been studied and analyzed to death since the 1970s and not once has been found to be able to break even, except when California politicians and their paid consultants took up the baton.

-John



Date: 10/18/20 14:13
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: goneon66

RRBaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In my opinion, poltical "fake news" screeds do not
> belong on TOs...just saying.

in my OPINION, i will let the MODERATORS decide what links i can post here.

just sayin............

> One can just as
> easily say the same negative things about
> California's Freeway System, only the smog it
> produces, that gives the San Joaquin Valley some
> of the worst air in the USA, may gag one before
> they can get a word out.

feel free to discuss that........

66
 



Date: 10/18/20 16:12
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: cchan006

RRBaron Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Running government like "a business" got us where we are
> today on the brink of disaster because many real
> life issues, like COVID-19 know nothing of
> business.

Haha. Some people have reading comprehension problems. Worse yet, some people have reality comprehension problems.

Excerpt from the article:

When California Gov. Gavin Newsom (D) took office in January 2019, he ignored his initial misgivings to shut down the Bakersfield Merced (MB) portion of the project and decided to move full steam ahead with construction, promising to deliver an operational line by 2029.

Translation: Governor was likely aware of CA HSR's political problems, so he flip-flopped to get the votes, then once elected, he catered to his "lobby" and resumed his "support." That means this project is hopeless, because getting votes and getting money (but not completion) seems to be the primary motives.

CA HSR project has been in trouble way before COVID-19, like what happened in Madera last year. TO members are a polite bunch who won't call you out, but I will. You've lost your mind.



Date: 10/18/20 16:18
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: cchan006

jcaestecker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone who believes that the state of CA will be
> able to skillfully and honestly see this through
> to completion for less than $100 billion deserves
> to keep pumping his or her tax dollars to
> Sacramento.

The problem with both the proponents and opponents of CA HSR is this: They are trying to measure its merits (or "demerits") by money.

You can throw $billions to bunch of incompetents and/or corrupt people. It doesn't improve the project. People continue to be stupid, or be corrupt. Real regime change has not occurred within the CA HSR Authority. Why are people expecting a different outcome? 



Date: 10/18/20 17:38
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: RRBaron

jcaestecker Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Anyone who believes that the state of CA will be
> able to skillfully and honestly see this through
> to completion for less than $100 billion deserves
> to keep pumping his or her tax dollars to
> Sacramento.  

I'm ready to "pump!" I asked CAHSR to sell me the first ticket! :)



Date: 10/18/20 17:51
Re: ca hsr cost estimate.........
Author: TAW

cchan006 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> The problem with both the proponents and opponents
> of CA HSR is this: They are trying to measure its
> merits (or "demerits") by money.

This is the problem with US rail transportation in general. Transportation effectiveness is always secondary to cost and profit.

>
> You can throw $billions to bunch of incompetents
> and/or corrupt people. It doesn't improve the
> project.

You can also award to the lowest bidder, some entity that is not corrupt and is competent, then produce a bad product because of limitations placed on them. I found that out early on in developing the WSDOT project. I made the mistake of developing a detailed build this for this result incremental implementation. Each of the six phases had a set of infrastructure projects that would produce a new, better service timetable on completion. Then it came time for funding. Projects to support an implementation phase were not evenly distributed among legislative districts. Every disstrict would have had the benefits of the improved service, but not all got construction projects. That wouldn't do. Instead, projects were picked for funding according to who got them. The result was no complete implementation phase and there was a struggle to try to prove that we got anything for the money.


> People continue to be stupid, or be
> corrupt. Real regime change has not occurred
> within the CA HSR Authority. Why are people
> expecting a different outcome? 

Part of the success of the apparently engineered failure of CAHSR is that propaganda for at least 70 years is that rail transportation is old fashioned and ineffective. Americans don't really know anything about rail transportation. Not knowing anything, they don't know why other countries have HSR or how they got there, they only know that they want it because the other have it. With desire and absolutely no knowledge, it is easy to do what CAHSR is doing. It is not the only rail project that works that way.

As long as the public at large as well as elected officials know that all the rest of the world has are bullet trains, that European railroads were built for passenger trains, European freight trains only run at night, and so on, the door is wide open for dishonest experts, in the manner of the Simpsons monorail episode.

TAW



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