Passenger Trains > NY: LIRR looking at battery electric trains

Long Island Rail Road is considering the feasibility of battery electric trains to operate over currently diesel-served lines.

Paywall possible:  https://www.newsday.com/long-island/transportation/electric-powered-trains-lirr-1.50217680

See what the NYC FD Commish says about that, running major league lithium or whatever batteries into tunnels.

I have to agree, that with present day technology, there is always the possibility of a runaway battery fire in a very confined space in a mile lonf tunnel under the city on NY.    This would be beyond catistrophic.   I dont see how this could possibly be worth the risk, just to save a few gallons of diesel, or to keep the truely crazies on the far side of green, happy.

Truth is, other than the warming from direct sunlight, there is no something for nothing in the energy game.  The crazies think if they eliminate the  use of all fossil fuels in vehicles, there will be no pollution anymore. Not true.  Not to mention the  risks involved in battery, CNG, LNG and hydrogen energy production.

The fire that burned from the idiots who crashed their "self driving" tesla into a tree, went on for 4 hours.  Anyone want to tell me how "non pulluting" that was?  a 4 hour battery fire....
 

The purpose is to run EMU trains out to the diesel branches avoiding transfers.

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The purpose is to run EMU trains out to the diesel
> branches avoiding transfers.

Makes sense to me.

The world is changing guys.  Battery powered electric freight locomotives are also coming.

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to agree, that with present day technology,
> there is always the possibility of a runaway
> battery fire in a very confined space in a mile
> lonf tunnel under the city on NY.    This would
> be beyond catistrophic.   I dont see how this
> could possibly be worth the risk, just to save a
> few gallons of diesel, or to keep the truely
> crazies on the far side of green, happy.

Ever seen a propane bottle explode? I have been on wild fires with propane tanks and bottles venting and exploding, It does wake you up better than a cup of coffee. But that hasn't stopped the greenies from making school buses with natural gas and propane bottles under the floor or the new electric school buses lined with batteries. That's your children, you think the thought of a tunnel is going to affect anything?

TomG Wrote:
> But that hasn't stopped the
> greenies from making school buses with natural gas
> and propane bottles under the floor or the new
> electric school buses lined with batteries.

How many of these have exploded?

Do they still have third rail in the tunnels?

Bob Krieger
Cheyenne, WY

3rd rail for LIRR trains, always had. 

I was on the last voyage to  Channel Islands NP the Conception made before the catastrophic fire that killed 34. The cruise was a watercolor journaling short course with only 1 or 2 divers.  The thought being on a lithium battery train in a tunnel scares me. 

......lithium batteries likely caused and/or enhanced the fire.

I'm sure that the battery would be activated just before the trains enter diesel territory. I must say that on the Oyster Bay Branch, the stops are pretty close to each other and running these MUs on battery power will certainly help with acceleration and perhaps reduce some travel time on the schedule. As for more direct Manhattan service from the Oyster Bay Line, I don't think the pre covid-19 ridership really justifies for that. The entire Pt. Jefferson Branch is a different story. I could see more direct trains running to the city from the diesel stretch of the Pt. Jefferson Line.

restricted_speed Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The purpose is to run EMU trains out to the
> diesel
> > branches avoiding transfers.
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
> The world is changing guys.  Battery powered
> electric freight locomotives are also coming.

Duh!   well of course they want to replace the diesels running in diesel territory.   Are you saying they just want to run battery power in lieu of the DE diesels, and not the DM's, that can run thru to penn station?   Fair enough, but thats not a lot of trains, and doesnt eliminate any train changes at Jamaice.  As for high juice battery power...its still got a ways to go befor being viable, or hadnt u noticed that all the class 1st have gotten rid of their hybrid/battery powered engines.  Or the rate of failures and fires of these engines when in heavy service.    They seem to be doing on shortlines, where there is lighter duty.  Thats not the LIRR.   
And the only reason that any shortlines in CA have hybrid power, is cause the state air polution board paid them to buy them..cause the CA air mgmt board are a bunch of lunatics that live in a bubble of theory, and not reality.

PS  Batteries are doing OK in light duty, like cars, but in heavy applications, I think we've got a ways to go.  Batteries are dangerous as hell...so i think ur assesment of "get used to it, batteries are coming in big trains"...is a bit optimistic.  Maybe eventually, but not tomorrow.

 

TomG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> pdt Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I have to agree, that with present day
> technology,
> > there is always the possibility of a runaway
> > battery fire in a very confined space in a mile
> > lonf tunnel under the city on NY.    This
> would
> > be beyond catistrophic.   I dont see how this
> > could possibly be worth the risk, just to save
> a
> > few gallons of diesel, or to keep the truely
> > crazies on the far side of green, happy.
>
> Ever seen a propane bottle explode? I have been on
> wild fires with propane tanks and bottles venting
> and exploding, It does wake you up better than a
> cup of coffee. But that hasn't stopped the
> greenies from making school buses with natural gas
> and propane bottles under the floor or the new
> electric school buses lined with batteries. That's
> your children, you think the thought of a tunnel
> is going to affect anything?

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have to agree, that with present day technology,
> there is always the possibility of a runaway
> battery fire in a very confined space in a mile
> lonf tunnel under the city on NY.    This would
> be beyond catistrophic.   I dont see how this
> could possibly be worth the risk, just to save a
> few gallons of diesel, or to keep the truely
> crazies on the far side of green, happy.
>
> Truth is, other than the warming from direct
> sunlight, there is no something for nothing in the
> energy game.  The crazies think if they eliminate
> the  use of all fossil fuels in vehicles, there
> will be no pollution anymore. Not true.  Not to
> mention the  risks involved in battery, CNG, LNG
> and hydrogen energy production.
>
> The fire that burned from the idiots who crashed
> their "self driving" tesla into a tree, went on
> for 4 hours.  Anyone want to tell me how "non
> pulluting" that was?  a 4 hour battery fire....

Those gosh darn "greenies."

If batteries really had a propensity to explode, I doubt the Navy would have allowed them in submarines for propulsion when running entirely submerged.

Submarines use wet cell lead acid batteries. Their danger was salt water getting to them and generating phosgene gas

Posted from Android

Submarines used wet cell lead acid batteries. Their danger was salt water getting to them and generating phosgene gas.

Posted from Android

pdt Wrote:
>
> Duh!   well of course they want to replace the
> diesels running in diesel territory.   Are you
> saying they just want to run battery power in lieu
> of the DE diesels, and not the DM's, that can run
> thru to penn station?   Fair enough, but thats
> not a lot of trains, and doesnt eliminate any
> train changes at Jamaice.  

They are all of 2 Port Jeff and 1 Oyster Bay dual-modes per day, all rush hours. They are thinking of the other trains. The Port Jeff shuttles and Huntington MU's would be run-thru's with BEMU. Oyster Bay would be 6 car BEMU. 

M-7's are 67 tons before you add batteries. A minimum MU train on the LIRR is 6 cars, but most Pen Station trains are 10 -12 cars. I don't think it will work. They have been agonizing about electrifying to Port Jeff for over 50 years, then got dual-mode disease in the 90's, lying it was "same as electrification" to bamboozle the realtors. They need to stop the bull-crap and extend the 3rd rail. The Ronkonkoma electrification has decimated ridership east of Huntington because it is faster. What were 8 - 13 car Hunterspoint trains in the 1980's are now 4 car bi-levels. Doing  the seat math, that's about a 50% reduction.

Now a 1.3 century-old concept:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_electric_multiple_unit
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/21 05:52 by Ray_Murphy.

Tne Metro North electrification to Brewster / Southeast made a huge impact on real estate

Posted from Android

pdt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> restricted_speed Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > joemvcnj Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> PS  Batteries are doing OK in light duty, like
> cars, but in heavy applications, I think we've got
> a ways to go.  Batteries are dangerous as
> hell...so i think ur assesment of "get used to it,
> batteries are coming in big trains"...is a bit
> optimistic.  Maybe eventually, but not tomorrow.
>
Here in Santiago, Chile we now have close to 3500 fully electric city buses in service with the rest of the fleet (about 2500 more) to be replaced by electrics within a year.  And after a couple of years,  there have been no fires or other problems,  nor have they run out of juice.  On the other hand,  various 'unknowns'  routinely set fire to a bus or two every couple of week or so.  They do evacuate the driver/pax before torching the bus.