Passenger Trains > Scranton to NY Service

Almost daily the local Scranton paper runs a story about a possible Scranton to NY service.  This article is more detailed than most on the obsticles that remain.

https://www.thetimes-tribune.com/news/long-ago-amtrak-ran-a-train-to-scranton-but-only-once/article_a0fa4384-ad21-5024-ad28-d024c7948d3c.html

Cut and paste for those who don't want to see the picture of the F-40 in front of the Lackawanna station in Scranton which is now the Raddison Hotel.  

========================================================================The next Amtrak train to run to Scranton won’t be the first one.More than 40 years ago, as the 1970s ended, local railroad advocates mounted an effort to revive the passenger train service between Scranton and Hoboken, New Jersey, that ended Jan. 5, 1970.A series of events led Amtrak to run one never-publicized “inspection train,” meant to evaluate the condition of tracks and railroad equipment between the cities in November 1979, said Dominic Keating, one of the advocates who took the trip that day. The inspection never got beyond that, thwarted by fears of costs and railroad and government politics, said Keating and Paul Hart, a member of the Lackawanna & Wyoming Valley Railway Historical Society.Keating, 73, a member of the society and the Pennsylvania Northeast Regional Railroad Authority board, has a lot more hope for current efforts.

His hopes ride on Amtrak itself proposing a new Scranton-to-Hoboken route with three daily trips; U.S. Rep. Matt Cartwright, vowing to restore the service; a massive infrastructure bill moving through Congress with the necessary money; and an advocate in the White House, President Joe Biden, the Scranton native who spent his years as a senator traveling on Amtrak between Washington, D.C., and Wilmington, Delaware.“So a lot has changed,” Keating said.The Scranton Amtrak train that could have happened long ago requires a little context.In 1976, the federal government created Conrail to assume control of multiple bankrupt freight railroads, including the Penn Central Transportation Co. and the Erie Lackawanna Railway. Erie Lackawanna operated that last passenger trip between Scranton and Hoboken. In the reorganization, Conrail gained ownership of the tracks and right-of-way between the two cities, but wasn’t interested in running freight trains on it or selling the right-of-way.“Conrail wanted to take out the part (of the tracks) in New Jersey because they didn’t want some of the railroads to be able to come in and compete with them,” Hart said.Keating had joined a member of a railroad task force that represented a 22-county region that wanted to preserve freight service to Northeast Pennsylvania.

By the middle of 1978, many rail advocates felt sure — correctly as it turned out — Conrail would eventually tear up the Erie Lackawanna tracks, which included the ones on the famed 28-mile Lackawanna Cutoff in northern New Jersey.In a conversation about preventing that, the late Dick Marshall, a local railroad equipment dealer, and Keating came up with running a weekly weekend passenger train to keep the tracks active.“It was kind of far fetched, but we gave it a try,” Keating said.In the spring of 1979, Keating and a couple of other railroad advocates traveled to Jersey City, New Jersey, to visit a New Jersey Transit official, Bill Herkner, a former Erie Lackawanna official. New Jersey Transit operates passenger trains. They pitched New Jersey Transit running a trip from Hoboken to Scranton on Friday for commuters, a round trip on Saturday for leisure travelers and a trip back to Hoboken on Sunday. The meeting didn’t last long, with Herkner agreeing to New Jersey Transit running a train, Keating said.“The last words he said were, ‘You have a train. Now go figure it out,’” he said.They returned home, told the Lackawanna County commissioners about it, but kept publicly silent because they had nothing nailed down. Next, Keating and others met with state transportation officials, who balked at allowing New Jersey Transit to operate in Pennsylvania.“I think it scared them to be part of a challenge to Conrail in any respect, and this is definitely a challenge to stop them from tearing up the tracks,” Keating said.The PennDOT officials suggested asking Amtrak instead. They proposed a daytime trip from Philadelphia to Harrisburg to Pittsburgh, starting a temporary Altoona to Pittsburgh trip because a major highway reconstruction would create congestion, and the Scranton-to-Hoboken trip.The first two actually happened, Keating said. To this day, state taxpayers fund the Amtrak train that runs from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh. It typically costs between $16 million and $20 million a year but only $14.8 million in 2020-21 because of federal COVID-19 subsidies, PennDOT spokeswoman Alexis Campbell said in an email.

The Scranton train turned into a one-shot deal.Keating said he and officials of PennDOT, Amtrak, New Jersey Transit and Conrail met aboard an Amtrak train consisting of a locomotive, a passenger coach and an office car and traveled from Hoboken to Scranton on Nov. 13, 1979. Amtrak officials wanted a sense of the route and the condition of tracks, signals, crossings and other equipment.Conrail allowed the trip on one condition: no publicity. Publicity might spur a public campaign to actually keep the tracks in place, Keating said.Keating got a ride and met the train along the route in Dover, New Jersey. Conrail removed enough tracks in its Port Morris train yard so no train could travel directly to the cutoff. It took almost 90 minutes of switching tracks to get on the cutoff closer to Pennsylvania, but the trip came off.“We proceeded over the cutoff and had no problem. So the line was still in very good condition and that remained so all the way to Scranton,” he said. “We pulled in right next to the (old Lackawanna) station.”That’s now the Radisson at Lackawanna Station hotel. Keating has a picture of the train.Officials debated the merits of reviving the Scranton train.

Over the next year, a Conrail official kept reminding Amtrak of potential financial pitfalls — track maintenance, acquiring cars and others. PennDOT officials were unwilling to subsidize it, Hart said.After about a year, Amtrak lost interest, especially after President Ronald Reagan took office. David Stockman, his budget director, wanted Reagan to scrap money-losing Amtrak altogether. That left Amtrak worried about surviving instead of widening service, Keating said.Advocates have kept trying to revive the service since then, but progress basically stopped for more than a decade. During the last few years, New Jersey Transit has restored about 4.2 miles of track and plans to finish another 3.1 miles to Andover, New Jersey. That will leave about 21 miles without tracks on the cutoff, but it also buoys hopes.“I have a distinction of being on the last train over the cutoff,” Keating said. “And I’m going to lose that, I hope, in my lifetime.”



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/13/21 11:35 by amtrakbill.

Thanks for posting this.  I knew about the Amtrak train but not about the weekend NJTransit plan.  I met Bill Herkner several years later when he was the point person on the project to run ski trains from Hoboken to the ski slopes in Vernon, NJ (on the NYS&W).  Sadly the year that train ran was one of the warmest, least snow covered seasons in years.  That train ran only 3 times that year and has never been repeated.  It did show that running trains from Hoboken to points on the NYS&W was possible (via Hawthorne Jct.).

If you're under 10 years old and live to 90 you might ( operative word might) live long enough to see this actually happen. It's been a consultants wet dream, studied to death and back.

    Ross Rowland 

Political sponsorship in NJ and PA is essential. But the project lacks that in NJ, and sees strong opposition in Sussex county.

If there was support and demand, the NJT line to Blairstown would have done decades ago.

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I am not sure if I see Scranton to NYP/Hoboken........and definitely NOT by NJT after the NJT Atlantic City Express went up in flames.......

Could Amtrak look furhter and make it a back door to Binghamton?

Unfortunately I think the opportunity for this to be re-connected with a viable passenger train has come and gone years ago.....

I bet it'll be a roadblock just like the other states who don't want to participate in Amtrak's "2035" expansion plan!

I'd love to see the Cutoff restored - it's such a waste of an engineering triumph and arguably a predecessor of the LGVs of France and other modern high speed routes.  It could certainly host semi-high speed passenger trains today.  It always made me a little sad driving under the fill at Andover on Rt 206 or under the abandoned viaduct on I-80 at the Delaware Water Gap when I lived up in the Poconos.  Real estate agents have been hyping the supposed return of rail service for at least 20 years, but I think it would be great for Stroudsburg, Scranton, and the region as a whole.

Since the Connect US map for Allentown has Somerville, NJ as an intermediate stop, I think it is merely a route extension of the RVL service west of High Bridge. I don't think it will work - much too slow. There was a Philipsburg O&D analysis about 10 years ago. Buses on I-78 are much faster, most New York City bound people on I-78 are on those buses, with most automobile market crossing the Delaware River is headed to New Jersey points, most of them not served by the Raritan Line.  



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/21 04:43 by joemvcnj.

I remember that I-78 study. My recollection agreed with yours. A lot of the morning Lehigh County etc vehicle commuters were headed to Morristown, Princeton, New Providence, etc.

There was a similar I-80 study with similar conclusions.

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NJTransit could extend RVL trains from High Bridge, which is difficult to get to, out to Bloomsbury, where the CNJ line ends and was connected to the former Lehigh Valley.  Bloomsbury is immediately next to I-78 and would be an excellent spot for a large park and ride station.  Minimal cost (compared to service out to Allentown) and it would allow commuters to avoid the most congested points further east on I-78.  In fairness, as someone pointed out, a lot of those commuters are going to places like Bridgewater, Basking Ridge, or Berkley Heights and thus never going to take a train.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I remember that I-78 study. My recollection agreed
> with yours. A lot of the morning Lehigh County etc
> vehicle commuters were headed to Morristown,
> Princeton, New Providence, etc.
>
> There was a similar I-80 study with similar
> conclusions.

True, but the M&E has suburban job centers along its route. The Raritan Line does not. Most cars from P-Burg and the A-B-E area are headed for Hunterdon and Somerset Ciounty office sprawl.

However Amtrak is not looking to haul daily commuters, not with 2 trains per day proposed. The are thinking more like it is Quincy or Carbondale, IL. 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/21 04:05 by joemvcnj.

njmidland Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NJTransit could extend RVL trains from High
> Bridge, which is difficult to get to, out to
> Bloomsbury, where the CNJ line ends and was
> connected to the former Lehigh Valley. 
> Bloomsbury is immediately next to I-78 and would
> be an excellent spot for a large park and ride
> station.  Minimal cost (compared to service out
> to Allentown) and it would allow commuters to
> avoid the most congested points further east on
> I-78.  In fairness, as someone pointed out, a lot
> of those commuters are going to places like
> Bridgewater, Basking Ridge, or Berkley Heights and
> thus never going to take a train.

The development along the CNJ line in places like Asbury is amazing. I suspect a lot of push back would happen if the subject of trains was raised.  Suburban developments, homes near the tracks, etc.

But ... but ... Amtrak Joe will solve everything ... LOL

SanDiegan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But ... but ... Amtrak Joe will solve everything
> ... LOL

Give it a rest.  Biden never said that and his supporters never said that.

The Biden Administration has proposed an ambitious plan for Amtrak.  It's up to Congress to pass the legislation and up to Amtrak and the states to make it work.

By the way, San Diegan, which politicians do you support who have better plans for intercity passenger rail?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/21 04:04 by RuleG.

RuleG Wrote:
-
> The Biden Administration has proposed an ambitious
> plan for Amtrak.  It's up to Congress to pass the
> legislation and up to Amtrak and the states to
> make it work.

It is 100% up to the states to fund it by the 5th year, and most of them can see right through that.. Anyone who expects Indiana, Ohio, or South Carolina to cough up a dime is kidding themselves. Suspicious gaps are present, like Louisville-Nashville and Pueblo-Trinidad so as to prevent any expansion of the LD network. Those gaps are deliberate. The purpose of Connect US is to distract Congress from the national long distance network and show it is not worth expanding. Their 5 year plan says "status quo".  I regard Connect US as a hoax, overcharge the states, and use Amtrak's bogus accounting to further subsidize the NEC. I expect nothing to happen of the 50 proposals except for 2 or 3, and only because efforts were under way long before this plan came up, having nothing to do with it. 

Oklahoma's train would extend to Newton to allegedly connect with the Chief - at 2am. That is a laughable connection, as is the transfer at Pittsburgh to the Capitol Ltd. Adding a New York frequency and extending one or the other to Cleveland does nothing about that.   

It is all based on PRIIA-209, which has balkanized Amtrak into federal and state trains, with connections not held between the two, not even for 10 minutes. You see that often from train 30 to train 42, despite a half hour fat in 42's schedule into Harrisburg. Ditto at Kansas City from train 4. The current Amtrak president wrote PRIAA. The fix is in because the conflict of interest is present. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/15/21 04:07 by joemvcnj.

SanDiegan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But ... but ... Amtrak Joe will solve everything
> ... LOL

You don't mention Stephen Gardner, who's been trying to push this proposal to every state in the lower 48 and most aren't even buying it? Be nice if that PIRRA crap wasn't in effect 12 years ago, they were fine with the 403B Deal!

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RuleG Wrote:
> -
> > The Biden Administration has proposed an
> ambitious
> > plan for Amtrak.  It's up to Congress to pass
> the
> > legislation and up to Amtrak and the states to
> > make it work.
>
> It is 100% up to the states to fund it by the 5th
> year, and most of them can see right through
> that..

That's why I said Amtrak and the states.

Anyone who expects Indiana, Ohio, or South
> Carolina to cough up a dime is kidding themselves.

Last time I checked, New York, Scranton and other places along the routes discussed in the article are not in Indiana, Ohio or South Caroline.  If you believe otherwise, I'm not going to argue with you about it here.


>
> It is all based on PRIIA-209,

The purpose of my post was to push back on a gratuitously sarcastic comment about Biden, not to dredge up PRIAA-209 which has been discussed ad nauseum in prior threads.

which has balkanized
> Amtrak into federal and state trains, with
> connections not held between the two, not even for
> 10 minutes. You see that often from train 30 to
> train 42,

In terms of what I see, I've seen 42 held up for a late-running 30 a couple of times, including this morning.


 

Train 42 left Pittsburgh two minutes late on September 15.

It has left the origination point late 10 times in the last 90 days. Some of those delays may be crew rest issues.

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https://transportationtodaynews.com/news/23923-amtrak-releases-proposed-pennsylvania-improvements/