Passenger Trains > NY Penn improvements at risk

The Wall Street Journal has an article today about the re-consideration of NY Penn expansion, LaGuardia air train, etc as Governor Kathy Hochul takes power.

Several aides close to former Governor Andrew Cuomo have left already.

Mr Cuomo's plan relied on more big buildings around Penn Station. Mrs Hochu! Would like to see how business returns, and whether eminent domain, etc is a good idea.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/plans-for-airtrain-to-laguardia-other-new-york-projects-in-doubt-with-andrew-cuomo-departure-11632398492?mod=hp_lead_pos11

Posted from Android

Fiscal responsibility?

Penn Station South and demolition of that block is part of the 10 year old Gateway project. It has nothing to do with Cuomo.Tearing down buildings everywhere else is. 

To this left coast observer, Cuomo's plans for the LGA AirTrain didn't seem to make much sense. I'm curious what the more local observers think about the future of Cuomo's AirTrain

WP17

I'm not a New Yorker -- and it's up to them what they want to do -  but,

I've always liked the idea of extending PATH to the Newark Airport.

WP17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> To this left coast observer, Cuomo's plans for the
> LGA AirTrain didn't seem to make much sense. I'm
> curious what the more local observers think about
> the future of Cuomo's AirTrain
>
> WP17

LGA Airtrain is a terrible and circuitous route out to Corona and the project should be killed. If Hochul keeps it, it is to retain construction jobs and/or she was bamboozled by the Port Authority. She is from Buffalo. 
 
The Q70-SBS (SBS=off board payment and all door boarding) bus from the LIRR and #7 (Flushing line) subway at Woodside, and the E/F/R/M (Queens Blvd IND), the #7 subway, and a 5 route bus hub at Jackson Hts works fine. 

LGA Airtrain means paying an extra PFC $7.75 charge, not a free transfer between the suwbay and the MTA Q70, and for that you get a rather useless service. 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm not a New Yorker -- and it's up to them what
> they want to do -  but,
>
> I've always liked the idea of extending PATH to
> the Newark Airport.

Except PATH won't go to Newark Airport, but to a new rail station further west than the current NEC one, which will be demolished, and then onto a Monorail replacement. That Monorail replacement is what ought to be extended east to Newark Penn.

From what I can tell..the LGA airtrain was either go to the LIRR/7 train at Willets point, or Astoria on the subway B division. (IDK what train goes there now.  Used to be the RR years ago, LOL) .  Willis point makes more sense IMHO, cause the LIRR to penn station is a who lot quicker than the Astoria train, which probably averages 20 mph with at leadt 10 stops between astoria snd Mid town.

The argument against Willits point is that u go east from LGA, to go west to mid town manhattan.  Who cares, if its faster in the long run.

And then i think there was also some idea to have an airtrain to Jaclkson Hts for the 7 and E and F trains,,,but thats a densly populated area, and looks like a nightmare, from where im sitting.

I thought i heard that the willis point route was under construction...but IDK.  Im sure we will hear from the usual ppl.

As for Penn station..  IDK what the hell they are planning.  If it just another dumb idea, with the real payoff being for politically connected RE developers, that would be the usual.   As far as m concerned, the 1st thing they should do is get rid of that insane excuse for a train station, and rebuild what idiots destroyed years ago.    Of course, that means someone has to care about arcitecture and the grandeur of the city and future generations and stuff. more than money.   LOL

https://new.mta.info/system_modernization/penn-station-reconstruction

We don't need to replicate Old Penn Station. Nobody under 70 remembers it, and it could not be air conditioned. 

The Astoria BMT (now N & W trains) could be extended to LGA, though LIRR could not access it, and getting across the Hell Gate Line where they would intersect would be very difficult. Corona is on the Port Washington Branch. Corona is not accessible from the rest of the LIRR. 

The Astoria subway at least directly accesses all of Manhattan south of 60th Street. LIRR is only from Penn Station and soon GCT. What about getting to NYPS and GCT to begin with ? 



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/21 17:10 by joemvcnj.

joemvcnj Wrote:
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> The Astoria BMT (now N & W trains) could be
> extended to LGA, though LIRR could not access it,
> and getting across the Hell Gate Line where they
> would intersect would be very difficult. Corona is
> on the Port Washington Branch. Corona is not
> accessible from the rest of the LIRR. 
>
> The Astoria subway at least directly accesses all
> of Manhattan south of 60th Street. LIRR is only
> from Penn Station and soon GCT. What about getting
> to NYPS and GCT to begin with ? 

The N and W line subway already goes under the approach to the Hell Gate Bridge--the end of the line at Dittmars Blvd. is on the east (LGA) side of the Hell Gate line.  That seems like the closest to LGA any existing rail transit route gets.   But, like several others upthread, I don't live there so I don't know all that goes on.   BSB 

1.  I know where Corona is, D/S.   So its on the port wash line.   Im willing to bet that most of the # of ppl going to NYC from LGA, go to Manhattan.   If ppl from LI want to travel, they can go to JFK...like there's no flights out of there or something.  Taking the Astoria line, or any subway line into the city from either LGA or JFK is just torture, and hardly suitable for someone with luggage. he Astoria line, especially, is one long speed restriction.  Lots of tight curves, the speed restriction descending into the East river tunnel going west...
Even if u ran express trains from LGA to 57th st and down the express tracks, it wouls still be a slow ride between 57th st and the Astoria terminal.   I guess if u extended the astoria line into LGA, it would at least be a 1 seat ride...but the Subway is heavy rail, and that has its on problems trying to build heavy rail into LGA, as opposed to light rail (the airtrain)

I come in to NY a lot from JFK, and the number of times i take the LIRR to manhattan is always, and the E train, never.   OK, I did take the Jamaica L  once....just to see the new track at the end, and what they did to East New York station . Oh, and i got to ride an express using the middle track from ENY to Marcy Ave, IIRC.  Thats always exciting.  And is the connection from the J line to the IND 6th ave line back in use?  I seem to think so...I probably would have liked to ride on that again.

As for Penn Station, I dont care what they build, as long as it looks like a train station and is a worthy place for the arrival for visitors to NYC.  The current "Penn Station" is a welcome to the utilitarian garbage of the 1960's and 70's.   They should run reruns of the Match Game with Gene Rayburn on CRT TV's in that place.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/23/21 22:43 by pdt.

The status quo of the Q70 works fine. People will choose LGA over JFK based on their flight, not whether or not there is a train. The two airports are not interchangeable.

There are at least 6 LIRR trains an hour to Jamaica, but only 2 per hour to Port Washington most of the day. Factor interval time into consideration and LGA Airtrain loses as well as the fact that most people in Manhattan are not near Penn Station. We don't know how LIRR plans to divide service between NYPS and GCT once ESA opens.

Less than 1% of LIRR patronage to Jamaica is going to JFK. Most taking Airtrain take the E train to Jamaica, or take the Q10 to the Airport from the subways at Kew Gardens or Ozone Park.

Posted from Android

Im going to leave this "conversation"  I have my doubts about some of the info.  Especially the backwards logic regarding LIRR jamaica usage...We'll of course a very small percentage of the ppl using jamaica station go to JFK. Duh.   Its the net number that counts.  The percentage means nothing. Its obviously a commuter station for ppl living on LI.

And what percentage of the Ppl using the E and J trains to get to JFK via the airtrain, are shift workers?  Im talking about travellers, not  employees.   

And...I believe it is entirely possible for the LIRR to run  more than 2 trains an hour to Corona or Willits point or whatever station they use.  They could even put in a turn back crossover if they want., or a pocket track and a crossover.   I do believe that is possible. LOL

Have u ever tried to take the bus in Queens with luggage.?     I did it a few times from Jackson Heights to LGA, when i was young and broke.

And....JFK and LGA are interchangeable when it comrs to domestic travel..

 

Fine leave, but just about everything you said is wrong, and your experience is very dated. The Q70SBS is nothing like the Q33 that you rode a generation ago. LIRR is not going to run empty 6 car trains, their minimum, just to connect with something that hardly anyone will ride, that are at best 2 car trains. LIRR costs $10.75 / $7.75 / $4.50 to Jamaica or Flushing (peak, offpeak, weekends) + $7.75 PFC charge. If people have money to burn, they call Uber. There hasn't been any shift from LGA to JFK because the latter has Airtrain. People pick their airport by where they are coming from and where most of their airline's flights are headed from. Jet Blue has 4 planes a day from JFK to Buffalo, Zero from LGA.  



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/21 05:32 by joemvcnj.

Roar.
Snort.
Fart.

The real estate around the new Penn Station is a major part of the transaction, with most of the usual players involved.  With Andrew Cuomo and Donald Trump out of the picture, their respective allies lost a lot of leverage.

The Governor has the ability to use eminent domain on some very valuable land which will benefit directly from the so called master plan.

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The real estate around the new Penn Station is a
> major part of the transaction, with most of the
> usual players involved.  With Andrew Cuomo and
> Donald Trump out of the picture, their respective
> allies lost a lot of leverage.
>
> The Governor has the ability to use eminent domain
> on some very valuable land which will benefit
> directly from the so called master plan.

I think a more centrist Mayor-To-Be Eric Adams will also have some input. The area is tacky, dumpy, and needs new constuction. 

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The real estate around the new Penn Station is
> a
> > major part of the transaction, with most of the
> > usual players involved.  With Andrew Cuomo and
> > Donald Trump out of the picture, their
> respective
> > allies lost a lot of leverage.
> >
> > The Governor has the ability to use eminent
> domain
> > on some very valuable land which will benefit
> > directly from the so called master plan.
>
> I think a more centrist Mayor-To-Be Eric Adams
> will also have some input. The area is tacky,
> dumpy, and needs new constuction. 

Agree on both points.  With two larger than life players off center stage, there may actually be more progress.  The Amtrak "box tunnel" under part of the area in question was a highly prudent investment