Passenger Trains > Why does it take so long

I have never seen this discussed on TO.  Train 7 was late today because they had to set off a BO car. I have been on several Amtrak trains when they had to do the same.  It seems to take such a long time to do the job.  My question why does it take so long.  Are folks just not in a hurry or is there a reason.  Just wondering.

Relocate passengers to other cars, diaphragm curtains, end gates, HEP cables, brake pipe and main reservoir branch pipe hoses, coupler pins (the extra ones that prevent the couplers from opening), the actual switch moves, and remember to secure the cars (hand brakes, wheel chocks or skates as necessary).  This is always a surprise, and usually performed by road crews that are not familiar with any of this.  Slow and cautious wins the day, and keeps everyone safe and employed.
 

It's amazing that in any other first world country, they can add and drop coaches or swap locomotives in a matter of minutes. Amtrak just has excuses. That's why we can't have nice things.

No it's called rules and regulations and keeping a cert card.

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> It's amazing that in any other first world
> country, they can add and drop coaches or swap
> locomotives in a matter of minutes. Amtrak just
> has excuses. That's why we can't have nice things.

When this sort of thing happens in the UK the train is immediately taken out of service and the passengers are either bused or put on the next train. I would bet that is standard across Europe as most trains run more frequently than once a day. 

jeremykhn Wrote:
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> No it's called rules and regulations and keeping a
> cert card.

I have yet to see any rules or regulations that require train crews to work stupidy slow.

If Metra can kick out a bad order coach or combine trains in a matter of minutes,why can't Amtrak?
 

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> It's amazing that in any other first world
> country, they can add and drop coaches or swap
> locomotives in a matter of minutes. Amtrak just
> has excuses. That's why we can't have nice things.

What other First World Country have you been to that adds or drops passenger coaches in a matter of minutes?  And this is not a planned and scheduled add/drop like the moves at Spokane, San Antonio, and Albany so there's an extra complication of relocating up to 70 passengers in a train that might already be sold out.  Find me some anecdotal evidence of a bad ordered passenger car being set out unexpecedly in a matter of minutes in another First World country.  I'm waiting.  Someone already responded to you with anecdotal evidence that in England the whole train is just pulled from service;  That's not an improvement, and is not practical in a once-per-day train that travels 2,000 miles (EDIT:  Thinking about this, I'm pretty sure most European passenger trains are semi-permanently coupled anyway and can't be switched enroute).


DevalDragon Wrote:
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> I have yet to see any rules or regulations that
> require train crews to work stupidy slow.

Then you haven't read a railroad rulebook.


DevalDragon Wrote:
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> If Metra can kick out a bad order coach or combine
> trains in a matter of minutes,why can't Amtrak?

Once again, provide me anecdotal evidence of your claim.  I'm willing to bet you Metra operates more like those trains in England and just sets the passengers out so they can limp the train straight to the yard in the case of a bad order coach (I worked for a while as a Conductor for a North American Commuter service which was not Metra.  We got a hot bearing once; the railroad had us discharge the passengers at the next station then cool our heels in a nearby siding until after the rush hour was over, then we limped back to the yard without passengers at 30 MPH, stopping every 10 miles to check the bad bearing).  Coupling two complete trains together in the case of an engine failure is much easier than switching a single car out from the middle of a fully loaded train so it doesn't count.

The truth is a passenger train is not a freight train, a passenger car is not a freight car.  You can't just close an anglecock and kick the car out of the way.  You have to relocate and/or reaccomodate passengers, Turn off and secure the 480 volt power supply, disconnect the power and comunication cords, most commuter services and Amtrak all pins the couplers on their cars so you have to bunch the cars up, remove the pins, properly secure the cars being left behind (No shortcuts there with people onboard, and remember you have to go up and down stairs to tie hand brakes in Superliner cars, not just stand conveniently right next to the cutting lever you're about to pull).  It is a LOT more work than switching a freight car, and then the cars themselves can't be handled like freight cars (Especially with people onboard) so you have to move the cars a lot slower and more carefully when coupling and uncoupling so you don't go knocking your passengers around.  Then in the end you have to hook up all the electrical cables, comm cables, pin the couplers again, do brake tests, power up the 480v HEP. 

Honestly, an hour and 20 minutes is pretty fast all things considered.  Not sure a freight crew could set out a bad order car much faster than that when you add up all the steps.  Maybe a little faster, but not much.

(Edited for formatting)



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 10/12/21 12:55 by OTG.

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> If Metra can kick out a bad order coach or combine
> trains in a matter of minutes,why can't Amtrak?
>  

I have seen or experienced at least six instances of Metra having to combine trains. It has never happend in "a matter of minutes". The shortest delay was over 30 minutes. On some occasions, commuters were moved from the disabled train to the other train. On some others, they were left on the platform for a following train to pick up. 
FWIW, I've never seen or heard of Metra setting out a car or locomotive.

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> It's amazing that in any other first world country, they can add and drop coaches or swap locomotives in a matter of minutes. Amtrak just has excuses. That's why we can't have nice things.


In addition to all the other explanations you have been given, many European trainsets use much more complex coupler systems that include all the utilities that are separate disconnects here in the not so first world USA.

Air, HEP, Signal and the mechanical coupling systems are integrated into one unit, along with the required shut offs.

Brian

I was on a train in Austria in 2007. Don't remember  the exact route.  They dropped a care do to mechanical. Took about 10 minutes as I recall. 

choodude Wrote:
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> DevalDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > It's amazing that in any other first world
> country, they can add and drop coaches or swap
> locomotives in a matter of minutes. Amtrak just
> has excuses. That's why we can't have nice
> things.
>
>
> In addition to all the other explanations you have
> been given, many European trainsets use much more
> complex coupler systems that include all the
> utilities that are separate disconnects here in
> the not so first world USA.

It hasn't always been this way and it's still not. There are quite a few locomotive hauled trains that used the century old hook and screw couplers with all the old style connections that are separate.

In Stuttgart they would pull a passenger train in, unload it, shove it out, run around it and shove it back in within 20 minutes. InterCity / EuroCity trains which require a locomotive swap to change direction are in and out in less than 10 minutes. In Zürich they do similar pick ups and setouts with Eurofima stock in a matter of minutes.

The quick answer is setting out a car on the road can involve many steps. Dropping power, cutting the consist, building air, where does the set out car have to be moved to for storage, re-building the train, air tests, etc..

The better question is why does Amtrak have to set out cars and locomotives so often? Why do they have to add extra power to trains to account for bad order locomotives? Why is Chicago allowed to get away with the crap they put out on the road? Has anyone ever done a root cause analysis and compared Chicago with other facilities? They have locomotives stacked up everywhere to the point that they deadhead them to other facilities to get them fixed properly.

OTG Wrote:
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>
> Honestly, an hour and 20 minutes is pretty fast
> all things considered.  Not sure a freight crew
> could set out a bad order car much faster than
> that when you add up all the steps.  Maybe a
> little faster, but not much.
>

Then there is the matter of deciding whether it can be fixed or needs to be thrown out. Throwing a car out of a passenger train is a pretty big deal. If it isn't obviously unfixable immediately, determining that might take a little time. Then there is the little matter of there not being a really convenient place to put the car they're setting out.

TAW

Something I think we can all agree on with another_view!

another_view Wrote:
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> The quick answer is setting out a car on the road
> can involve many steps. Dropping power, cutting
> the consist, building air, where does the set out
> car have to be moved to for storage, re-building
> the train, air tests, etc..
>
> The better question is why does Amtrak have to set
> out cars and locomotives so often? Why do they
> have to add extra power to trains to account for
> bad order locomotives? Why is Chicago allowed to
> get away with the crap they put out on the road?
> Has anyone ever done a root cause analysis and
> compared Chicago with other facilities? They have
> locomotives stacked up everywhere to the point
> that they deadhead them to other facilities to get
> them fixed properly.

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Woodman Wrote:
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> I have never seen this discussed on TO.  Train 7
> was late today because they had to set off a BO
> car. I have been on several Amtrak trains when
> they had to do the same.  It seems to take such a
> long time to do the job.  My question why does it
> take so long.  Are folks just not in a hurry or
> is there a reason.  Just wondering.

How setting out a car goes these days AFTER the passengers have been moved around.
Crew radios railroad Dispatcher, waits, crew uses radio tones to call dispatcher, waits, crew once again radios dispatcher (dispatcher has a freight in emergency elsewhere), waits, dispatcher radios train, waits, crew explains what they need to do to setting out a bo car at such and such a location, waits, dispatcher acknowledges the request, crew acknowledges that dispatcher understood request correctly, waits, dispatcher acknowledges that crew acknowleged that the dispatcher acknowledged that he undersood the request correctly. Waits, dispatcher has a freight that has tripped a hotbox detector elsewhere. And switches that have to be handthrown or that won't cycle properly, signals that don't display correctly, ect ect.....
This sort of thing can go on for HOURS then add in the crew hours of service barely allow them to get to the nextcrew change point only if things go half way correctly.
Throw in you have young  Condustors that have only the vaguest idea of how to correctly communicate with the Headend and the Headend isn't about to cut the Conductors a centimeter of slack. 
It very often if not the majority of the time turns into a classic cluster "Lets Go Brandon"

So often I remember PV's being set off east of Tucson AZ, and knowing this was going to be a two hour affair at least three was more likely, even though by current standards the track lawout was set up for such things and the El Paso based crews were all seasoned professionals who knew their jobs and had usually solid UP Dispatchers. Modern railroading just doesn't allow for much of anything to be done with dispatch and elan. 

480 volts is nothing to mess around with!  I always wondered why though, that they couldn't have a power cutoff switch on each car?
Cutting the HEP, and powering back up seems to be part of the time issue.  Gosh, back in the pre-HEP days, it was a lot quicker.
All the Hi-level cars were cycled through the ATSF Topeka shops on the Southwest Limited, with minimal delay.  They did have a
switch crew on duty there though.

Seen this charade back in 94 with the split/combinging of the Meteor in Jacksonville, I can understand why it takes  the time it takes, but it could be quicker if they stayed with the steam heat!

ProAmtrak Wrote:
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> Seen this charade back in 94 with the
> split/combinging of the Meteor in Jacksonville, I
> can understand why it takes  the time it takes,
> but it could be quicker if they stayed with the
> steam heat!

You've got to be kidding.  One of the best things Amtrak ever did was replacing steam-heated cars with electrically heated cars.

Amen to what Rule G wrote.  I saw too many injuries and problems with steam cars back when I worked on them.  But I will say, we could cut in or cut out a car on the end of a passenger train in about the same amount of time it took to run an air test.  It was not due to steam train lines. It was due to coordination and railroad switch crews who were Johnny on the spot.

RuleG Wrote:
> You've got to be kidding.  One of the best things
> Amtrak ever did was replacing steam-heated cars
> with electrically heated cars.

RuleG Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ProAmtrak Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Seen this charade back in 94 with the
> > split/combinging of the Meteor in Jacksonville,
> I
> > can understand why it takes  the time it
> takes,
> > but it could be quicker if they stayed with the
> > steam heat!
>
> You've got to be kidding.  One of the best things
> Amtrak ever did was replacing steam-heated cars
> with electrically heated cars.

I hear ya,  but if I remember a Trains Opinion back in 92 or 93 on one guy wondering why they have to shut the HEP down doing those manuvers, it seemed he didn't get it either!