Passenger Trains > Well, we will see @ Dining...on Amtrak

Wapo story about dining cars returning,,,,,,
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/dining-car-soon-return-amtrak-211328502.html

Wake me up when the dining car services are returned to coach passengers! This has been going on for a while now, where's this person been at, the Twilight Zone?

ProAmtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Wake me up when the dining car services are
> returned to coach passengers! This has been going
> on for a while now, where's this person been at,
> the Twilight Zone?

============================================

Repeating Amtrak propaganda...and publishing it.

I wish there was less romanticizing about the old days of railroading, and more emphasis on providing a good meal to a passenger on a 1 to 3 day trip.  BSB

BigSkyBlue Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I wish there was less romanticizing about the old
> days of railroading, and more emphasis on
> providing a good meal to a passenger on a 1 to 3
> day trip.  BSB

While there are a lot who do romanticize, I believe that this addresses the dire need to open the diner to coach passengers. I, for one, wouldn’t want to travel across the country w/ a sub-par 7-11 amcafe being my only option. Hiding behind the pandemic curtain and now the newest excuse ( and a real problem for sure) of not enough employees due to vaccine mandates, is only going to work so long.
And, not to get too far off the thread track, but the aforementioned vaccine mandates and the opposition from a sizable part of the Am-workforce, has already brought up internal memos threatening tri-weekly service and other cutbacks, again. I just take everything one day at a time now—sometimes even “Minute by Minute” like the Michael McDonald song.

Everything I've been reading the past few months says Amtrak is slowing improving dining car service with a lot of positive reviews.

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> Everything I've been reading the past few months
> says Amtrak is slowing improving dining car
> service with a lot of positive reviews.

If "slowing" equals "showing", that is good news

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DevalDragon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Everything I've been reading the past few
> months
> > says Amtrak is slowing improving dining car
> > service with a lot of positive reviews.
>
> If "slowing" equals "showing", that is good news

"Slowing" = "slowly" as in slowly improving.

Heading in the right direction.

I wonder how many furloughed food service staff have chosen to return?

Posted from Android

The simple fact is that when dining car service was available to coach passengers they accounted for between 8-25% of total customer count generally breakfast, and less than half of that in revenue. Adding additional staff that just adds to the overall loss makes no sense. Wait, one more little fact, the restriction to the diner had absolutely no impact on coach passenger demand, imagine that!

Everyone claims they want passenger rail to flourish but aren’t willing to adapt to the market is the problem. Coach passengers aren’t demanding dining car service with linens and flowers.

Posted from iPhone

Since there were often numbered waiting lists for breakfast and lunch, including the eastern trains, and 4 to 5 dinner seatings, while coach passengers make up 75% of passengers on board, your assumptions make no sense. The diners handled plenty of money transactions. But breakfast was the least popular meal. Of course you have it all backwards. Not surprising in the least.

You also refuse to comprehend the concept of fixed costs of dining cars, and only incremental revenue can cover it. If you want to get rid of several OBS positions, go after the coach attendants.

Coach passengers are not content eating nuked gas station food for each meal for two days in a row. That is why Anderson's obvious sabotage of the business is starting to be reversed.

Congress also made it quite clear to cut the bullcrap. Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers cannot eat anything for the New York section south of Albany.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/23/21 16:33 by joemvcnj.

After FIFTY FRIGGIN' YEARS, dining on Amtrak is STILL one of our government's BIGGEST jokes. And the joke is on the passengers.   ×   

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there were often numbered waiting lists for
> breakfast and lunch, including the eastern trains,
> and 4 to 5 dinner seatings, while coach passengers
> make up 75% of passengers on board, your
> assumptions make no sense. The diners handled
> plenty of money transactions. But breakfast was
> the least popular meal. Of course you have it all
> backwards. Not surprising in the least.
>
> You also refuse to comprehend the concept of fixed
> costs of dining cars, and only incremental revenue
> can cover it. If you want to get rid of several
> OBS positions, go after the coach attendants.
>
> Coach passengers are not content eating nuked gas
> station food for each meal for two days in a row.
> That is why Anderson's obvious sabotage of the
> business is starting to be reversed.
>
> Congress also made it quite clear to cut the
> bullcrap. Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers cannot
> eat anything for the New York section south of
> Albany.

Thing is Joe is View assumes that adding help makes the losses worse, so in other words "Dining Car Services has to be profitable" and yeah he's so backwards it's not even funny!

gandydancer4 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After FIFTY FRIGGIN' YEARS, dining on Amtrak is
> STILL one of our government's BIGGEST jokes. And
> the joke is on the passengers.   ×   

To you it is, especially since you probably never rode an Amtrak Train!

joemvcnj Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there were often numbered waiting lists for
> breakfast and lunch, including the eastern trains,
> and 4 to 5 dinner seatings, while coach passengers
> make up 75% of passengers on board, your
> assumptions make no sense. The diners handled
> plenty of money transactions. But breakfast was
> the least popular meal. Of course you have it all
> backwards. Not surprising in the least.
>
> You also refuse to comprehend the concept of fixed
> costs of dining cars, and only incremental revenue
> can cover it. If you want to get rid of several
> OBS positions, go after the coach attendants.
>
> Coach passengers are not content eating nuked gas
> station food for each meal for two days in a row.
> That is why Anderson's obvious sabotage of the
> business is starting to be reversed.
>
> Congress also made it quite clear to cut the
> bullcrap. Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers cannot
> eat anything for the New York section south of
> Albany.

All of your evidence is anecdotal at best, waiting lists mean absolutely nothing. It’s simple math, each meal served loses money, more leaks served means more money lost. I have nothing against dining car services as long as the diners want to pay for it. It’s been proven, the loss of dining car service does not adversely impact revenue and reduces losses.

Posted from iPhone

-------------------------------------------------------
> The simple fact is that when dining car service
> was available to coach passengers they accounted
> for between 8-25% of total customer count
> generally breakfast, and less than half of that in
> revenue. Adding additional staff that just adds to
> the overall loss makes no sense. Wait, one more
> little fact, the restriction to the diner had
> absolutely no impact on coach passenger demand,
> imagine that!
>
> Everyone claims they want passenger rail to
> flourish but aren’t willing to adapt to the
> market is the problem. Coach passengers aren’t
> demanding dining car service with linens and
> flowers.
>
> Posted from iPhone

OK, so then there appear to be three choices Amtrak needs to make then, in regards to "traditional dining" for Western Long Hauls:

1) No additional OBS staff for the diner. Frankly, once the Diner goes back to communal seating, this should open open up around 8 tables per seating in a Superliner Diner (18 tables total, 10 per seating for sleeping car passengers in communal seating, and the other 8 for coach seating, per sitting time). How about one final meal seating for coach passengers, after your sleeping car passngers are fed.

2) Does Amtrak implement the 24 hour Diner model that was tested on the Sunset Limited, that reportedly was a success - TRAINS article on it a few months ago had some good backup and numbers that broke things out the accounting and staffing - to toward the positive.

3) Continue with the status quo - aka sleeping car passengers have access to the diner only - BUT perhaps there's some improvement on the cafe meny to include some sandwiches, salads, and even the better of the flex meals 

another_view Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> joemvcnj Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Since there were often numbered waiting lists
> for
> > breakfast and lunch, including the eastern
> trains,
> > and 4 to 5 dinner seatings, while coach
> passengers
> > make up 75% of passengers on board, your
> > assumptions make no sense. The diners handled
> > plenty of money transactions. But breakfast was
> > the least popular meal. Of course you have it
> all
> > backwards. Not surprising in the least.
> >
> > You also refuse to comprehend the concept of
> fixed
> > costs of dining cars, and only incremental
> revenue
> > can cover it. If you want to get rid of several
> > OBS positions, go after the coach attendants.
> >
> > Coach passengers are not content eating nuked
> gas
> > station food for each meal for two days in a
> row.
> > That is why Anderson's obvious sabotage of the
> > business is starting to be reversed.
> >
> > Congress also made it quite clear to cut the
> > bullcrap. Lake Shore Ltd coach passengers
> cannot
> > eat anything for the New York section south of
> > Albany.
>
> All of your evidence is anecdotal at best, waiting
> lists mean absolutely nothing. It’s simple math,
> each meal served loses money, more leaks served
> means more money lost. I have nothing against
> dining car services as long as the diners want to
> pay for it. It’s been proven, the loss of
> dining car service does not adversely impact
> revenue and reduces losses.
>
> Posted from iPhone

So in other words, get rid of it and everything else, make it Ala SP back in the 60s and make things bad for passengers as possible! Nice idea View!

another_view Wrote:

> All of your evidence is anecdotal at best, waiting
> lists mean absolutely nothing. It’s simple math,
> each meal served loses money, more leaks served
> means more money lost. I have nothing against
> dining car services as long as the diners want to
> pay for it. It’s been proven, the loss of
> dining car service does not adversely impact
> revenue and reduces losses.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Guess what - your nonsensical theories are anecdotal, just as you tried dismissing the professional at the TEMPO group as railfans, after 18 years of proven financial results, because they were deemed a threat to your inept and destructive buddies in Amtrak management.  My evidence is reality. Going from a staff of 4 or 5 to 1 or 2 means plenty of coach passengers were eating there. So much for that theory of yours that they did not. The wait lists and multiple seatings and reservations said it all. So of course you live in virtual reality rejecting everything that does not conform. Since fixed costs have been allocated, of course every meal loses money. But you have no concept of that, or the bogus nature of their APT accounting schemes. Dining cars never in RR history made money. They are loss leaders. So go take some marketing and managerial accounting courses and learn something.

Amtrak admitted cutting eastern dining cars saved $3 million a tiny percentage of their operating budget. It also lead to major customer complaints, Congressional complaints, lower CSI scores, and less repeat business. Anderson was also stupid enough to spill his cookies and say he wanted only 5 to 10 trains to survive. 
https://www.rollcall.com/2020/06/29/amtrak-dining-cuts-rile-congress/

But I know how we can save $750 million a year- terminate the 456 mile NEC's exemption from PRIAA-209 and its federal funding. Then your friend Stephen Gardner can spend all his time grovelling with his tin cup and Salvation Amy kettle among 8 state legislatures to keep the NEC from falling apart.

LD coaches that are filled with passengers headed to a common destination like Chicago, Washington, or Atlanta don't need coach attendants, but you obsess with diner staff because you are still trying to carry out Anderson's not so hidden agenda, who was dumb enough to believe in their accounting, even though Moorman, Boardman, and Gunn told him it was crap.

So keep trying to reduce national network into a steel wheeled bus company and defying Congress and that is exactly what will happen.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 10/24/21 07:58 by joemvcnj.

Well said Joe!

Yes, excellent. It is always refreshing to hear truth.