Passenger Trains > Porter Report (Would BNSF do this to Amtrak and Metrolink?)

LAKE SHORE LIMITED 49 arrived CP 482 at 9:25/Left 9:55
WOLVERINE 351 approached CP 482 at 9:36/passed art 10:08
Oil train 66E was approaching CP 487 (5 miles west of 482) as 351 was knocking on 482's door
After 66E cleared, Chicago Tml DS let 49 proceed.  I heard him tell 34J he'd follow 66E east.
351 wound up waiting for both eastbounds
If the Amtraks had been given clear signals, 49 would have arrived CHI about 10:15 - he got there 10:51; and 351 would have made his 10:32 arrival time comfortably - he got there 11:01.
Can anyone familiar with Metrolink imagine BNSF running two freights in the face of the SOUTHWEST CHIEF and a nearby Surfliner at Fullerton, CA, holding each up for over half an hour?
Galesburg, IL is another hot junction where BNSF could do this but doesn't.  Not even CSX does this at Folkston, GA (junction of the Jesup and Nahunta Subs), CP 169 (junction of Selkirk Branch with Chicago Line at Hoffmans, NY) or CP 437 (junction of the Niagara Branch with the Chicago Line in Buffalo).  These are all double track (Fullerton Line 3) with junctions that have train volumes similar to NS' Chicago Line.  NS is in a class of its own!
Andy

You'll make a fine Director of Train Operations some day...

What other trains were in the area at the time?

NS meltdown  crew shortages figure into it, their freights die,  and they and maybe even amtrak get hosed?

NS mismanagement is not Amtrak's problem.  The delays to Amtrak keep happening day after day at Porter.  NS flouts the law on the preference of passenger trains over freight trains.  Do not tell me about NS incompetence - their crew shortages, etc.  Tell me when they are going to be forced to obey the law.  

Some ppl can dispatch efficiently, and some have to do whats easiest and requires the least mental gymnastics.
Same issue with local freigh conductors...what some can do in 4 hours, others need  8 hours to do  the same work.
Im pretty high up there in the spacial orientation dept, so i cringe, too, when i see someone doing something the hard way.   I just want to pick them up by the ears and say "Look, its not rocket science".

Also sometimes theres  a supervisor with an ax to grind,  breathing down the dispatchers neck.  And sometimes its the host RR's crew that is going to go dead if they dont hold everything else for it.

Take away is the same as we have known for the last several years...Ppl running the class ones these days, and the stock holders, just want a quick buck before they die. No interest in building something sturdy for future generations.

IMHO

 

MEKoch Wrote:
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> NS mismanagement is not Amtrak's problem.  The
> delays to Amtrak keep happening day after day at
> Porter.  NS flouts the law on the preference of
> passenger trains over freight trains.  Do not
> tell me about NS incompetence - their crew
> shortages, etc.  Tell me when they are going to
> be forced to obey the law.  

Amtrak is also causing delays daily on the Michigan Line. 

The unions don't help with this problem. The worst dispatcher is paid the same as the best one. Aside from personal satisfaction there is no incentive for then to do more than the bare minimum.

a few questions since i no nothing about this "porter" location:

could anybody post a link to a track diagram there?

also, how far away is porter from both the n.s. and amtrak crew change locations?

approx. how many trains do n.s. and amtrak run through porter daily?

thanks for any info...........

66

 

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> The unions don't help with this problem. The
> worst dispatcher is paid the same as the best one.
> Aside from personal satisfaction there is no
> incentive for then to do more than the bare
> minimum.

You probably also end up with the more experienced dispatchers on lighter desks due to seniority. 

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The unions don't help with this problem. The
> worst dispatcher is paid the same as the best one.
> Aside from personal satisfaction there is no
> incentive for then to do more than the bare
> minimum.

I think one of the problems is that dispatching is such a thankless job.   IDK what u can do to make the jon more attractive to ppl who are good at it.
If u increase the pay and days off, u increase the amount of good and bad ppl who will apply for the job.  I guess that would still result in more good ppl  getting hired.  

And then there is the problem with the RR constantly ioncreasing the dispatcher territory.  Its the same stupidity ive seen in the transportation industry forever.   There are busy days, slow days.  Buys times, slow times.  Mgmt always tries to staff for the slow times, cause they hate seeing someone getting paid to sit and not be busy for a period of time.   They will never understand that any job like that will have crazy ass busy times, and times when u can relax.  Thats the nature of the beast.  Mgmt continues to be just MF stupid.

IMHO

DevalDragon Wrote:
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> The unions don't help with this problem. The
> worst dispatcher is paid the same as the best one.
> Aside from personal satisfaction there is no
> incentive for then to do more than the bare
> minimum.

I don’t think it’s all the dispatcher’s fault when the Chief tells the dispatcher to do what the Auto-Router says to do or be reprimanded and threatened with termination. This isn’t the Union’s decision. This is Management causing the problems.

This link provides a rough sketch of the area.  Chicago Rail Junctions - Porter (dhke.com)
14 Amtrak trains; 10 head northeast on the Amtrak Michigan Line and 4 continue east on NS towards South Bend/Elkhart, IN.
Last I heard NS operates about 60 trains/day, and this may include 2-4 CSX trains running on trackage rights between the former C&O connection from Grand Rapids and the former B&OCT connection at Pine.  Anyone who knows the area feel free to update.
Andy

goneon66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> a few questions since i no nothing about this
> "porter" location:
>
> could anybody post a link to a track diagram
> there?
>
> also, how far away is porter from both the n.s.
> and amtrak crew change locations?
>
> approx. how many trains do n.s. and amtrak run
> through porter daily?
>
> thanks for any info...........
>
> 66
>
>  

thanks for the info andy.........

66

DevalDragon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The unions don't help with this problem. The
> worst dispatcher is paid the same as the best one.
> Aside from personal satisfaction there is no
> incentive for then to do more than the bare
> minimum.

Long ago (I guess if the example is Northern Pacific, it implies long ago), NP had A and B grade dispatchers.I don't know much about it. The practice was gone before I hired out on BN.

My first two Chief Dispatchers (B&OCT and SP Bakersfield) demanded the closest possible proximity to perfection. The tools for perfection were furnished. B&OCT was a small railroad. You could see just about anything you needed to and go to work the same day. FMB in Bakersfield maintained a big enough extra board for any dispatcher to see the territory ad lib.

The MILW Chief I worked for as an operator must not have expected much. Failures to understand the rules, bad practices, and outright violations were normal.

My first BN Chief expected a good job from everyone, but would manipulate the extra board to prevent the not quite so good extra dispatchers from working the hill (Seattle - Lamona, west of Spokane) instead of expecting them to be able to do the job. On the other hand, we had a new rule book take effect. I fixed a work train and the Anacortes Local in CTC on the new Track and Time rule. The Anacortes local conductor was upset and called the Chief. I was admonished for the way I handled the two trains. I responded that it was according to the new book. The Chief told me that he hadn't read the new book, but he didn't like that rule; use the one from the old book.

Then the slide downward was precipitous, with the next telling me I was too hung up on the rules, The next told me that I had a reputation for being unreasonable. The last (after a long period of generally deteriorating expectations) in attempting to get me off of the special assignment I was on and back on a trick job, told me that I had to because "we're short of bodies to answer phones and push buttons."

In the 60s, there was no dispatcher school. Becoming a qualified train dispatcher took years of preparation, then many months of apprenticeship-like training. Now, it's 28 or so weeks, street to the seat.

The industry has dug the hole they are in. But then, on the other hand, they don't particularly care: https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,5370420 Date: 11/27/21 09:53 Re: More Double Track to Run Fewer Trains Author: Pacific5th

Back in the 80s, I approached American Train Dispatchers Association (the union) about acting like the trade unions, insisting on quality and providing training/apprenticeship programs. The response was the quality and training are not the union's responsibility. If the industry doesn't care, why should the union? The ATDA I joined in 1969 and the one I left in 1997 were two entirely different organizations. When I started, train dispatcher was a profession, now it is a job. There is little preparation because there is little expectation, and the railroads kind of get the level that is expected.

a <<=>> b

How is the cycle broken?

TAW

Amtrak will force NS management to stop this nonsense -- IF  they win their upcoming case against
all the freight railroads, dealing with "Freight Train Interference".

No date has yet been set to begin proceedings, but, the STB has establish a Passenger Division, and is
staffing up to handle Amtrak complaints against frt. railroads ( and also railroad complaints against Amtrak)

The STSB will hear it's first Amtrak case starting Feb. 5th 
This case is where Amtrak is claiming all railroads cannot deny Amtrak the right to operate new service-- or
resume prior service,  In this case,  specifically the refusal  of CSX/NS to resume New Orleans--Mobile.

No need for we fans to argue if Amtrak is right-or-wrong.  It will be decided for us--starting Feb. 5th.

Train 294 on Friday took three different crews to get from 47th street to Toledo. 

30 and 48 both got hit hard thursday evening with dozens of trains between Porter/Chesterton and Elkhart. I've never seen anything quite like it. Should've screenshotted ATCS. Nothing much ran all day then they let the flood gates open in the early evening. 30 and 48 both sat for two hours waiting on congestion. 

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Amtrak will force NS management to stop this
> nonsense -- IF  they win their upcoming case
> against
> all the freight railroads, dealing with "Freight
> Train Interference".


It's not that simple. It's like giving a third grader a Sunday New York Times and demand that the third grader read and understand the whole thing or face punishment.

TAW

TAW Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ronald321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Amtrak will force NS management to stop this
> > nonsense -- IF  they win their upcoming case
> > against
> > all the freight railroads, dealing with
> "Freight
> > Train Interference".
>
>
> It's not that simple. It's like giving a third
> grader a Sunday New York Times and demand that the
> third grader read and understand the whole thing
> or face punishment.
>
> TAW


Best analogy EVER!🤣

Posted from Android

TAW Wrote:
> It's not that simple. It's like giving a third
> grader a Sunday New York Times and demand that the
> third grader read and understand the whole thing
> or face punishment.
>
> TAW

Exactly!! Just because someone owns a cookbook doesn’t make them a chef.