Passenger Trains > New Avelia Tainsets Delayed Again Until 2024

As outlined in a Washington Post article. Before everyone starts crying about Amtrak incompetence, read the article. Finally, a public disclosure of what regulators, Alstom, and Amtrak management have been saying privately for some time ...

https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2023/05/27/amtrak-acela-trains-delayed/?utm_source=reddit.com

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/23 11:20 by bioyans.

Behind a paywall...

Posted from Android

give us the cliff note s version?

dan Wrote:
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> give us the cliff note s version?

"But their delivery has been snarled by multiple delays, including some stemming from unforeseen complexities in testing and computer simulation processes required by the Federal Railroad Administration. Amtrak and train manufacturer Alstom have cited some compatibility hiccups between the high-tech train, modeled after those in operation across Europe, and infrastructure that dates back 190 years in some areas."

"The latest hurdle, officials said, involves testing the train’s wheels, particularly at higher speeds.

“The modeling of the wheel to track interface is particularly complex due to age, condition, and specific characteristics of Amtrak infrastructure on the Northeast corridor, and especially the existing tracks,” Alstom said in a statement."

"The company said it has been “conducting extensive investigations” to ensure trains will operate safely in all conditions. It added: “We are confident that this extensive process will demonstrate compatibility of the latest generation of high-speed technology with existing [Amtrak] infrastructure.”"

" They also noted these are the first train sets built under an FRA rule that establishes new safety standards for high-speed trains.

Amtrak in the coming months will seek approval from the FRA to operate on Northeast Corridor tracks, as well as for passenger safety standards and emergency preparedness requirements."

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/23 11:45 by bioyans.

In referencing my above post, the final paragraph is referring to Amtrak having to update its Emergency Preparedness Plan, as required under law by 49 CFR Part 239. Since the new equipment will differ from the previous Acela sets in layout, emergency egress, and appliances (such as fire suppression equipment locations), the plan will need to be reviewed, updated, and filed accordingly with FRA (with public review and comment).

There's a lot of wheels in motion in the background, and most people don't see the machinations that need to take place before a new design can enter service.

Posted from Android

The article went on to say he following --

. there is trouble with the wheels at higher speeds.  I'm guessing this means
""wheel hunting" - a condition which sidelined the original Acelas until stronger yaw dampers were installed

.  The new trains are articulated - which is proving more of a challenge to test. (didn't say why)

.  The problem of the Pantograph losing contact with the overhead wire has been corrected.

.  The article refers to NEC track as being decrepit. (personally, I think it is best track in the Country - it's certainly the fastest)

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The article went on to say he following --
>
> . there is trouble with the wheels at higher
> speeds.  I'm guessing this means
> ""wheel hunting" - a condition which sidelined the
> original Acelas until stronger yaw dampers were
> installed
>
> .  The new trains are articulated - which is
> proving more of a challenge to test. (didn't say
> why)
>
> .  The problem of the Pantograph losing contact
> with the overhead wire has been corrected.
>
> .  The article refers to NEC track as being
> decrepit. (personally, I think it is best track in
> the Country - it's certainly the fastest)

It's still a mess compared to Europe

Posted from Android

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I'm guessing this means
> ""wheel hunting" - a condition which sidelined the
> original Acelas until stronger yaw dampers were
> installed

Possible, but may also be the wheel/rail profile interface, which could lead to premature wear. Rail doesn't always have a constant profile, due to wear from friction (particularly in curves) and reprofiling (via a rail grinder).

> .  The article refers to NEC track as being
> decrepit. (personally, I think it is best track in
> the Country - it's certainly the fastest)

Likely a journalistic exaggeration. Much of the corridor is being rebuilt with new constant tension catenary, and adjusted track centers. While there are areas that need attention (bridges, tunnels, etc), most of the route is extremely well maintained.

Posted from Android

testing at pueblo could not simulate?

dan Wrote:
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> testing at pueblo could not simulate?

Pueblo is a controlled environment, and doesn't adequately replicate the real world conditions the trains will operate in. There were many nuances to the original Acela trains that weren't discovered until they hit the NEC, despite also being tested at Pueblo.

Posted from Android

One heck of a messed up process......and what a waste of money........

I agree, it's a waste like the Califronia HSR deal, why The Hell do you buy something and it takes years to get the bugs corrected, no wonder today's Amtrak's a joke, even getting something new these days has caused issues, 1ST the Venture cars, then the Chargers, now the Liberty which shoiuld've been on the NEC a few years ago!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/29/23 12:44 by ProAmtrak.

Since Alstom built the original Acelas -- I'm wondering if the new Acelas have 
exactly the same trucks (wheel structure).  If so, they have been through problems with "Wheels" before,
so why build new train sets which will have the same problem.

Also, it has always been my understanding, that the Colorado Test Track has tracks -- deliberately in various
stages of condition (smooth track/rough track), expressly to test riding condition, and tracking ability of the "wheels".
and, Amtrak has tested them up and down the NEC for over a year.  So, why don't they report exactly what's wrong.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/23 16:35 by ronald321.

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since Alstom built the original Acelas -- I'm
> wondering if the new Acelas have 
> exactly the same trucks (wheel structure).  If
> so, they have been through problems with "Wheels"
> before,
> so why build new train sets which will have the
> same problem.
>
> Also, it has always been my understanding, that
> the Colorado Test Track has tracks -- deliberately
> in various
> stages of condition (smooth track/rough track),
> expressly to test riding condition, and tracking
> ability of the "wheels".
> and, Amtrak has tested them up and down the NEC
> for over a year.  So, why don't they report
> exactly what's wrong.

Because they're too embarassed!

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since Alstom built the original Acelas -- I'm
> wondering if the new Acelas have 
> exactly the same trucks (wheel structure).  If
> so, they have been through problems with "Wheels"
> before,
> so why build new train sets which will have the
> same problem.
>
> Also, it has always been my understanding, that
> the Colorado Test Track has tracks -- deliberately
> in various
> stages of condition (smooth track/rough track),
> expressly to test riding condition, and tracking
> ability of the "wheels".
> and, Amtrak has tested them up and down the NEC
> for over a year.  So, why don't they report
> exactly what's wrong.

They haven't been cleared for high speed testing on the NEC yet. I've talked of this in the past, and how Alstom's computer modeling data hasn't matched the actual train performance, which is leading to the holdup in advancing the next steps. This article confirms it.

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/23 17:54 by bioyans.

Paywall Bypass:

https://archive.ph/2Fb3g

"So, why don't they report exactly what's wrong."

Because they're too embarassed!
============================================

Over twenty years ago, then-Amtrak president George Warrington outright LIED about the problems that the then-new Acela was having with wheelset instabiilty (hunting) at speed.  He specifically said, "It's not true!" within earshot of many at a reception in Fort Worth, TX.

Not only was it true, but it was only partly brought under control and required reinforcement of the carbodies of the Acela power cars before Acela could enter service, and even that proved not to be sufficient, as structural cracks later developed as a result of the excessive strain, forcing removal of Acela and substitution of AEM-7/Amfleet, returned to operation as "Metroliner Service."  Further modification to wheel contour and reinforcements to the carbodies allowed resumption of Acela service, though those in the know say the problems were never actually cured.

The original Acela's problems (which later also involved a deficient brake design) were largely attributed to the trains' excess weight on structures originally designed for trains that were much less heavy.  Colloqually, Acela has been called "The Pig" for its overweight design.  With suggestions that there are problems with Avelia's truck/track interface, and Amtrak appearing to be scrambling to blame everything except its new trains, one can only hope that we are not now seeing "Pig II."



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/28/23 22:46 by GenePoon.

I'm curious what Northeast Corridor RR infrastructure built in 1832-33 is encountered in Avelia testing: "...and infrastructure that dates back 190 years in some areas."

Philadelphia & Columbia RR, the earliest rail precursor to the Pennsy, started operation in 1832:

"...The Philadelphia & Columbia became operational on September 20, 1832, using flanged-wheeled carriages and wagons dragged by horse power atop iron-capped wooden rails over a 20-mile section between Broad and Vine Streets in Philadelphia and the Green Tree Inn, located between present-day Paoli and Malvern..."

And the New Haven RR didn't begin construction until 1847 as the New York and New Haven RR.

Is the Avelia expected to operate over "iron-capped wooden rails"?  :-)

 

Maybe they're referring to the Canton Viaduct,

Paul Wilson
Arlington, VA

Result of always trying to reinvent the wheel with every car order.
Will not stop until they get them square.

Interesting to see that the intensive testing of everything at Pueblo
is a dog and pony show with no relation to real world railroading.