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Date: 09/16/23 11:15
Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: Lackawanna484

If Amtrak decided to rebuild its Dash-8 units again, what would be a reasonable time estimate for how long it might take an in house or contract rebuilder to get the job done?  How long does it take Wabtec to rebuild the Dash-9 units it keeps pumping out?



Date: 09/16/23 12:13
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: ts1457

Wasn't there a probably with the truck frames?

You would have to find someone to cast a bunch of truck frames as your first big hurdle if my memory is correct.



Date: 09/16/23 12:17
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: dan

truck frames are good perhaps, the problem is when amtrak disreguarded the instructions from GE and how to go about it and trashed some sets

so the trucks maybe good if done correctly

WE are talking p40's 42's here, not what the o/p was talking about



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/23 12:56 by dan.



Date: 09/16/23 12:25
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: ts1457

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> truck frames are good perhaps, the problem is when
> amtrak disreguarded the instructions from GE and
> how to go about it and trashed some sets
>
> so the trucks maybe good if done correctly

Thanks.

Any units not retired which need trucks?



Date: 09/16/23 12:28
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: engineerinvirginia

Could probably retrofit GE B type freight trucks if there's no way to rebuild what they came with,...the locomotve doesn't have to ride like the coaches, and probably shouldn't. 



Date: 09/16/23 12:45
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: dan

i am sorry thought we were talking  about  p40s-42's  think the center pedestal is very different on the p40s42s  whatever they are , the dash 8's 500-510 8 of them owened by amtrak, yes they can get rebuilt

santa fe guys said they were rough riding, they could buy some from bnsf and convert them perhaps with HEP  power plant they would ride smoother??   Yes they can get rebuilt, i know of no truck problems with them, sorry i messed up.  Perhaps wabtec  or another shop could do it in a year you would figure less if they need work now!



back to my p42 tangent, think Amtrak has ones with good trucks for sale, if they cared they would retain them

but the chargers are working fabulously, SO there is no need

http://www.sterlingrail.com/classifieds/classified.php?id=27630

metra sd70's program looks inviting too



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 09/16/23 12:57 by dan.



Date: 09/16/23 13:46
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: BrynMawr

But if they get rid of rebuildable units, then the lemon failures increase,; makes LDT less possible, right?     Not to mention that presumably there are bins full of spare parts for the GE's in the vatious shop facilities and likely still skilled mechanics who "know" the engines.    Where did the mgmt people "learn" this sort of insanity/



Date: 09/16/23 13:50
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: ts1457

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> metra sd70's program looks inviting too

I've kept my eyes on that for years, but it looks like a few gremlins are left to work out.



Date: 09/16/23 13:54
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: dan

some people that follow that metra thing , say they are going to test them soon, very slow pace, deliberate, not a super rush maybe with not many 10 car trains warranted with post covid, i think is the last i heard maybe running in early 24?



Date: 09/16/23 14:06
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: ts1457

dan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> some people that follow that metra thing , say
> they are going to test them soon, very slow pace,
> deliberate, not a super rush maybe with not many
> 10 car trains warranted with post covid, i think
> is the last i heard maybe running in early 24?

They been testing one for several months coupled to another engine. I don't think that it has soloed, yet. My original thoughts was that Metra might want to drag it out until ridership returns, but seems like I heard someone say that it had some technical issues.

I'd love to see a couple of SD70MACH units be borrowed and tested by Amtrak.



Date: 09/16/23 17:04
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: PHall

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They been testing one for several months coupled
> to another engine. I don't think that it has
> soloed, yet. My original thoughts was that Metra
> might want to drag it out until ridership returns,
> but seems like I heard someone say that it had
> some technical issues.


And that's why you test, to find the problems before they effect service.



Date: 09/16/23 17:12
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: ts1457

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And that's why you test, to find the problems
> before they effect service.

Of course, but they have been testing for a long time, including time at the Colorado test track,

Let's just say, the curiosity is getting to me. They have had plenty of time to fix routine problems, so does the model have some fundamental flaws?

 



Date: 09/16/23 20:21
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: PHall

ts1457 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > And that's why you test, to find the problems
> > before they effect service.
>
> Of course, but they have been testing for a long
> time, including time at the Colorado test track,
>
> Let's just say, the curiosity is getting to me.
> They have had plenty of time to fix routine
> problems, so does the model have some fundamental
> flaws?
>
>  

Maybe it is a problem that has required several attempts to find and solve it. Intermittent problems are such fun to troubleshoot  [NOT].



Date: 09/16/23 23:39
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: SCspotter

GE (Wabtec) did offer to rebuild the Amtrak P42s from the ground up... torn completely down to the frame and rebuilt from there. New body, cab, Tier 4 AC traction prime mover (think something similar to what's in an ES44T4 GEVO), seperate HEP generator so you don't pull off the prime mover anymore. Assume finding someone to remanufacture the trucks. Basically make a modern, brand new P42. Probably with a different designation. Like "P42T4AC" or something fancy like that. GE gave them a price and a timeline, which I think was in the range of about 3-5 years for the ENTIRE fleet, figuring they're doing like 3 at a time. And while 207 were originally ordered, that's not what's left in service. Maybe like 170ish or so would be rebuilt out of what's remaining? Amtrak said no to the price and timeline and went elsewhere. It would have been a much better option probably than the Chargers, yet here we are. Siemens was the absolute bare minimum, cheapest, and only option available so that's where they went. Too impatient and not willing to spend a little more money for a better product. Not surprising in that regard. But a P42 rebuild program did at one time exist and would have likely been the much better option. Especially given what we know now. I do think GE could rebuild the current Dash 8s though, if Amtrak wanted to. 500, 503, 504, 506-519. Then base them all out of LA again to run to San Diego like in the early 90s! Joking... :p

The article referring to the proposed P42 rebuild is several years old when Amtrak was first looking for replacement power, maybe 5-7ish years ago? I'll see if I have it buried in all my files somewhere and will share it on this post if I do.



Date: 09/17/23 00:03
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: dan

good info lets get that in circulation, not sold on the chargers.....



Date: 09/17/23 00:21
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: MitchGDRMCo

What's an AC traction prime mover?



Date: 09/17/23 01:08
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: coach

SCAMTRAK.  We taxpayers got scammed on a crappy new engine class when a better option was available.



Date: 09/17/23 05:01
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: dan

MitchGDRMCo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What's an AC traction prime mover?

alternating current vs direct current...

a/c is used for freight engines gives better traction, used in europe for awhile , and last 20 years here in the US

used to be that passenger trains did not need the added expense of a/c, it was thought in the usm but now passenger engines are moving that ways too



Date: 09/17/23 06:48
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: Mojacket

Amtrak's FRP came out in 2018. There was a long thread on TO about it at the time.  
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,4565843





SCspotter Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GE (Wabtec) did offer to rebuild the Amtrak P42s
> from the ground up... torn completely down to the
> frame and rebuilt from there. New body, cab, Tier
> 4 AC traction prime mover (think something similar
> to what's in an ES44T4 GEVO), seperate HEP
> generator so you don't pull off the prime mover
> anymore. Assume finding someone to remanufacture
> the trucks. Basically make a modern, brand new
> P42. Probably with a different designation. Like
> "P42T4AC" or something fancy like that. GE gave
> them a price and a timeline, which I think was in
> the range of about 3-5 years for the ENTIRE fleet,
> figuring they're doing like 3 at a time. And while
> 207 were originally ordered, that's not what's
> left in service. Maybe like 170ish or so would be
> rebuilt out of what's remaining? Amtrak said no
> to the price and timeline and went elsewhere. It
> would have been a much better option probably than
> the Chargers, yet here we are. Siemens was the
> absolute bare minimum, cheapest, and only option
> available so that's where they went. Too impatient
> and not willing to spend a little more money for a
> better product. Not surprising in that regard. But
> a P42 rebuild program did at one time exist and
> would have likely been the much better option.
> Especially given what we know now. I do think GE
> could rebuild the current Dash 8s though, if
> Amtrak wanted to. 500, 503, 504, 506-519. Then
> base them all out of LA again to run to San Diego
> like in the early 90s! Joking... :p
>
> The article referring to the proposed P42 rebuild
> is several years old when Amtrak was first looking
> for replacement power, maybe 5-7ish years ago?
> I'll see if I have it buried in all my files
> somewhere and will share it on this post if I do.



Date: 09/17/23 08:04
Re: Rebuilding a P40/P40 locomotive?
Author: Typhoon

A GEVO engine is too tall to fit in the P42 shell.  I have heard that GE wanted nothing to do with rebuild of the locomotives, as it just wasn't cost effective for the amount of work needed.  



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