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Date: 02/23/24 08:15
Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: Typhoon

I know some people won't be happy with that news.


https://railfan.com/two-years-after-troubled-debut-amtrak-says-alc-42s-performing-well/

"In fact, the ALC-42s are now performing better than the P42s they will eventually replace"



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/24 08:30 by Typhoon.



Date: 02/23/24 08:25
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: longliveSP

Typhoon Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I know some people won't be happy with that news.
>
>
> https://railfan.com/two-years-after-troubled-debut
> -amtrak-says-alc-42s-performing-well/
>
> =16px"In fact, the ALC-42s are now performing
> better than the P42s they will eventually replace"

WHAT? IMPOSSIBLE! According to the various NAYSAYERS here on TO, this must be fake news.



Date: 02/23/24 08:37
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: ts1457

I am glad that the expensive buggers are out performing the worn out locomotives.

I still might have taken a different approach if it had been my choice.

I am curious how many Charger's are out of service awaiting repairs after grade crossing and other accidents.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/24 08:56 by ts1457.



Date: 02/23/24 08:52
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: Lackawanna484

They made it thru the winter.

Whew!

Posted from Android



Date: 02/23/24 09:13
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: GP25

You still have about month, before winter is officially over.


Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They made it thru the winter.
>
> Whew!
>
> Posted from Android

Jerry Martin
Los Angeles, CA
Central Coast Railroad Festival



Date: 02/23/24 09:22
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: goduckies

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They made it thru the winter.
>
> Whew!
>
> Posted from Android

A light winter luckily for them.



Date: 02/23/24 09:22
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: sethamtrak

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They made it thru the winter.
>
> Whew!
>
> Posted from Android

Minus the 13 coldest days of the year when they cancelled trains, yes. 



Date: 02/23/24 09:29
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: ts1457

sethamtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Minus the 13 coldest days of the year when they
> cancelled trains, yes. 

Good point!



Date: 02/23/24 09:45
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: jp1822

longliveSP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Typhoon Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I know some people won't be happy with that
> news.
> >
> https://railfan.com/two-years-after-troubled-debut
>
> > -amtrak-says-alc-42s-performing-well/
> >
> > "In fact, the ALC-42s are now performing
> > better than the P42s they will eventually
> replace"

>
> WHAT? IMPOSSIBLE! According to the various
> NAYSAYERS here on TO, this must be fake news.

That will certainly make your head turn - isn't that how it is supposed to be - the new units perform better than the old units?????? What kind of BS is being shovelled here? It's nice that this was owned up to - but it is absolutely the stupidest statement I've heard in a while. 

Am I glad the ALC42 units are performing better - YES! About time! Regardless of the winters and cancellations, I do think they are performing better. Amtrak also has spent a small fortune on these units - including what's supposed to be a Siemen's and Amtrak collaboration on the maintenance of these units. Amtrak should have hauled the broken down units out to the Siemans plant and let them deal with them - the fixes - while Sieman's paid for subsitute units for Amtrak to operate until they got fixed. Amtrak has no business sense or motivation to do something like this though. Private business with stakeholders - different story. ARGH!



Date: 02/23/24 09:54
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: BrynMawr

A more useful det of stats would be comparative MDBF at similar mileages, or at similar dates after "acceptance" would tell a more truthful story   
Meanwhile, has the MDBF of units serviced in Chicago caught up with units serviced at other facilities?  



Date: 02/23/24 10:18
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: dan

certainly set the bar high didn't they!  used engines with a few million miles on them



Date: 02/23/24 10:19
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: Lackawanna484

Having Siemens people in the shops and riding the trains may be making a difference.

It has with BrightLine...

Posted from Android



Date: 02/23/24 10:27
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: jp1822

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Having Siemens people in the shops and riding the
> trains may be making a difference.
>
> It has with BrightLine...
>
> Posted from Android

Absolutely this is making a difference. But look how long it took to get to that point!!!!



Date: 02/23/24 10:53
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: Lackawanna484

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Having Siemens people in the shops and riding
> the
> > trains may be making a difference.
> >
> > It has with BrightLine...
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> Absolutely this is making a difference. But look
> how long it took to get to that point!!!!

It will be interesting to see if the higher reliability continues after Siemens packs its tents and pulls its people from the shops.  Amtrak's very high reliability record with the Acela units plunged after the specialized Reliability Centered Maintenance procedures were discontinued.

There's something to be said for documenting that work is being done as required on the maintenance schedules.



Date: 02/23/24 11:13
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: coach

And customer satisfaction with AMTRAK, along with excellent dining choices on our trains, has never been better!!



Date: 02/23/24 11:45
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: dan

where did it say siemens folks are in the shops at amtrak or riding the trains?

70 design changes,  did amtrak even look at the design?

Why get a whole batch delivered before testing for a couple years?

I watched the one test train at winter park in a blizzard, but ..



Date: 02/23/24 12:40
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: ronald321

I think it's shameful that some people attack fellow fans by calling them names
like "naysayers" (longliveSP) - or inferring some fans only like bad rail news (Typhoon) -- Shameful.

I, for one, have always liked the Chargers, although in the beginning,  I know some fans were upset
about their frequent failures.

Fans who criticized these early failures are in good company.  For example---the Acela sets had a lot of
early failures--and, I remember so well, David Gunn calling them "Junk"--and that he would 
"never order these things again"  Guess Mr. Gunn was a naysayer.

 



Date: 02/23/24 12:51
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: Typhoon

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think it's shameful that some people attack
> fellow fans by calling them names
> like "naysayers" (longliveSP) - or inferring some
> fans only like bad rail news (Typhoon) --
> Shameful.

That is not what i inferred at all.  I have been quite clear on why I think some "advocates" don't like these units.  And it has to do with either they don't like the way they look, which is dumb, or they don't like the fact the company that built them is not American, which is stupid.  

Stop putting words into my posts. 


> I, for one, have always liked the Chargers,
> although in the beginning,  I know some fans were
> upset
> about their frequent failures.
>
> Fans who criticized these early failures are in
> good company.  For example---the Acela sets had a
> lot of
> early failures--and, I remember so well, David
> Gunn calling them "Junk"--and that he would 
> "never order these things again"  Guess Mr. Gunn
> was a naysayer.
>
>  


Guess so.  



Date: 02/23/24 13:28
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: ironmtn

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jp1822 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > > Having Siemens people in the shops and riding the
> > > trains may be making a difference.
> > >
> > > It has with BrightLine...
> >
> > Absolutely this is making a difference. But look
> > how long it took to get to that point!!!!
>
> It will be interesting to see if the higher
> reliability continues after Siemens packs its
> tents and pulls its people from the shops. 
> Amtrak's very high reliability record with the
> Acela units plunged after the specialized
> Reliability Centered Maintenance procedures were
> discontinued.

Will the Siemens people be pulled from the shops for the long-distance ALC Chargers? Perhaps not. Amtrak has a contract with Siemens for servicing and some aspects of maintenance. The details are not known so far as I know, but should provide some level of continuing support, for at least as long as the contract is in effect. I do not know if it is time-limited.

The Midwest regional SLC Chargers are a different story. No continuing maintenance / servicing support was purchased initially from Siemens, although it was to have been subsequently negotiated (do not know the status of that). This is per a statement made to that effect in a PowerPoint slide deck from one of the state DOT partners which was shared with me. I am not at liberty to share the slide or the source here, but have no doubt as to its authenticity. Do not know if this was the choice of the Amtrak Midwest coalition state DOTs, or Amtrak, or both to some degree.

And of course we know that Brightline has some kind of service support agreement with Siemens.

At any rate, as has been suggested several times here on TO previously, that may have had something to do with the reliability of the Midwest Chargers as compared to the Amtrak long-distance Chargers. In the opinion of a number of us, and I agree, it was mistake, however it was made, for the Amtrak Midwest coalition not to have purchased a service support arrangement with Siemens. There is a lot of new and previously unseen technology in these locomotives as compared to every previous design Amtrak has ever operated. There is heavy use of software-managed control systems, and other major new and different components, starting with the Cummins QSP prime mover, never before used in railroad passenger service (but which the same slide deck that I've seen notably said has proven to be a reliable prime mover thus far).

Plus there's likely just a different design approach. Any of us who have dealt with European-designed products and systems in our work just know from experience how different European design and maintenance philosophies can be. I've dealt with it in non-railroad corporate-level software in my career, and a family member works with European-designed mechanical systems regularly. I sure found lots of design differences in the software, and I've heard many stories about the differences in the European mechanical systems. That's not saying their approach is right or wrong, better or worse - it just can be different. And adopting to that can have a learning curve - and maybe a steep one. Until that's done and all of the maintenance and service work has become as well-known and routine as with more typically American-design equipment, a service / maintenance support contract is just a good idea. Regrettably, it was not undertaken initially for the Midwest Chargers.

BrynMawr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A more useful det of stats would be comparative
> MDBF at similar mileages, or at similar dates
> after "acceptance" would tell a more truthful
> story   
> Meanwhile, has the MDBF of units serviced in
> Chicago caught up with units serviced at other
> facilities?  

Correct. An MDBF (mean distance between failure) or MTBF (mean time between failure) statistic is not going to be a real apples-to-apples comparison unless it is a full time-series measurement with comparable date-in-service-life measurement. In other words, how are these Chargers comparing to the GEs at the same time (number of miles or time in service) in their service lives. It's useful to a limited degree to compare the Chargers to late-in-service-life and/or rebuilt GEs, but that only tells you a partial measurement - how much relative service attention we have to give to each type right now. It doesn't really measure the relative overall true level of service attention each type needed at this early stage of the lifecycle of the Chargers.

If the Chargers need more attention than GE's did at this time mark in their service lives, that might not be a good thing, and could be indicative of a more troubled service life down the road. Let's hope not.

MC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/24 13:32 by ironmtn.



Date: 02/23/24 13:33
Re: Amtrak says Chargers are performing better than the GE's
Author: ronald321

Typhoon

Yes, you just labeled some folks "dumb" and "stupid"  This is quite clear.

I think we fans should stop calling each other names.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/23/24 13:37 by ronald321.



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