Passenger Trains > Savannah to Orlando trip report

My brother-in-law were talking last evening at a family gathering.  He rode the train for a trip from Savannah to Orlando for a conference.  I asked him last evening how the trip went.  He launched into a review. 

The train arrived early at Savannah.  He said the station crew was very nice.  The trip was smooth, and he had both breakfast and lunch on board.  He reported that the food was good and that the crews on board were amazing.  What I am about to type was not fished for, but offered by him as a conclusion to his story.  "The only problem was the windows.  It was hard to see out.  They were so dirty that I called them 'milky.'"  

This was his first ride in a decade.  I asked if he would do it again.  He said he would, but he hoped that he could see outside.  I told him to contact customer service for a partial refund.  I explained what we are all seeing and told him that the more Amtrak hears from all of us, the sooner they will screw their heads back on straight and start taking care of things.  He added that it gives Amtrak a bad image when passengers watch their train arrive and it is dirty.  

So we are not outliers.  The general public is noticing, too.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/24 06:59 by Chessie1963.

Chessie1963 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> So we are not outliers.  The general public is
> noticing, too.

Indeed they are. I've heard such comments from general public passengers as well, and even from folks just meeting them at the station. Thanks for the report, and good strategy to have him call Amtrak. They need to hear from many sources, particularly regular passengers, that this is a real issue that needs to be addressed.

Glad to hear that he otherwise had a good trip. In my experience, the good points he cites are more the norm than the exception. Good to know that was the case for him.

MC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/10/24 07:04 by ironmtn.

Such a RIDICULOUS problem to have.  Wouldn't' you agree?

Gardner should go on TV and say (with tears and a quivering chin) and say--
"Somebody please help me--I don't know how to wash windows"

Behind the scene, he's probably thinking--"to hell with those windows--washing them will increase costs".

Who wants to start a business where we hire unskilled labor with a hard hat, a safety vest,provided with a squegie, soap, and hose with water

Having people stationed at key stations across the country (like Richmond in this case) and clean windows!

What a concept!

This could change the culture at Amtrak in so many ways

Posted from iPhone

I rode a (mega-late) Silver Meteor last week in a Viewliner II. The exterior of the car was reasonably clean, but the windows appeared dirty. The problem is the window material. Viewliner II (and I suspect Viewliner I) windows are not glass. They are polycarbonate – “Lexan.” Lexan is virtually unbreakable, but over time, starts to scratch, cloud and discolor. The more effort taken to clean the car exteriors, particularly with cleaning chemicals, the worse it gets. Think of modern automobile headlight lenses. Once the clouding starts, the only real fix is to replace the pane.  So, while the windows may well be dirty, at least in some cases, it may be the mateiral aging.

My trip was to be a quick overnight from Philadelphia to Orlando to satisfy a Amtrak sleeper craving. My window was OK – not crystal clear, but acceptable. My room was fine, dining quite good. The bigger issue was that the train was late - really late - and 100% on Amtrak. Sat at Petersburg VA from about midnight to 5am (some of the time with HEP off and non-flushing toilets) while the powers decided what to do with a misbehaving locomotive. After all that, they set it out at a CSX yard and ran the rest of the way with one unit. From there on it was primarily crew issues that resulted in the train getting later and later. I hit the abort button at Savannah (scheduled 6:43 AM, arrived at 4pm) and flew home on a thankfully available non-stop. The train finally limped into Orlando at midnight instead of the scheduled 1pm - without me. To Amtrak’s credit, they sent me a $300 voucher without prompting. For now, however, I’m done with Amtrak overnight travel, at least for a while.My wife was the smart one. She took a pass on this adventure and missed all the fun.

Didn't we have the lexan insrant scratch issue in the 70s?  Seems to me Amtrak figured out a thin layer of actual glass solved the problem.  Is there zero institutional memory?

BrynMawr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Didn't we have the lexan insrant scratch issue in
> the 70s?  Seems to me Amtrak figured out a thin
> layer of actual glass solved the problem.  Is
> there zero institutional memory?

Is that allowed under various rules and regulations?

I remember the Lexan situation very well.

Lexan was a plastic invented by DuPont, and installed by Amtrak on all Amfleet 
cars in the 1970-80's - in response to the then out-of-control fad of throwing rocks at train windows.

Amtrak removed the plate glass windows and installed  a single piece of Lexan.--which could stop a bullet--
but, deteriorated very badly over time--to the point where you could not see out of them.

If memory serves, Amtrak solved the problem by replacing this arrangement with a pane of Glass on
the outside--with a pane of Lexan on the inside--of each window.

Probably, the current AmManagement never heard of this past situation.




 

The glass - Lexan "sandwich" is the standard glazing on the current Amfleet cars, to the best of my knowledge. It may also be on the Viewliners. In my experience (i have a of of Amfleet miles under my belt), the windows are generally pretty clear if washed, and far better than the all-Lexan windows back in the early Amfleet days, which were very subject to scratching and abrasion.

That said, I did have a trip recently on a very well-used Amfleet combination cafe - Business Class car such as are common here in the Midwest while we await (someday...maybe) the Venture cafe cars. The windows by some seats and booths in the cafe section really were very badly abraded and scratched on the Lexan inside pane, with resulting low visibility. The car and windows were quite clean on the outside. Before that trip, I don't think I had thought about the insides of the windows being able to be scratched up like that, but evidently it happens over a long duty cycle.

That car simply needed a thorough shopping - not only windows, but upholstery, carpets, trucks (it rode like a buckboard) and fixtures in the cafe that weren't working. Amtrak is super-stretched for cafes here in the Midwest while endlessly awaiting the Venture cafes, and it's got to be tough to get the cars into the shop, so I could give it some slack. And the attendant was great, even to making a few funny wisecracks about the car while he gave excellent service on a packed evening Wolverine train on a Friday that kept him very busy at the counter. His tip jar was getting quite full as passengers appreciated the service.

The very next trip I had another Amcafe, this time a full cafe - booth seating on both sides of the center counter. Uncommon here in the Midwest. That car had been recently shopped, and had a sharp new interior with new upholstery, wall coverings and LED lighting. It looked and rode great, including sparkling clean and clear windows.  So if Amtrak can cycle those midwestern cafes through the shop, they can and do come out looking very pleasant, including the windows.

They do try, and they do succeed. We all just wish it was done more consistently. But I could say the same for airlines, including some which are regarded as the tops - I've ridden in some pretty ratty aircraft on more than a few occasions.

MC

Does Amtrak have stored ViewLiner diners which could be substituted for cafe cars on Midwest trains?

Posted from Android

Lackawanna484 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Does Amtrak have stored ViewLiner diners which
> could be substituted for cafe cars on Midwest
> trains?
>
> Posted from Android

STORED - yes, but they need to be serviced. Out of 25 Viewliner Diners, only 11 are assigned (Lake Shore, Silver Star, Silver Meteor train sets), while 14 and one prototype Viewliner I are stored. So over half the Viewliner II Diner fleet is stored! And yes, they could work as cafe cars if needed in the Midwest as a pinch, AND offer a nice viewing car. Course, the Viewliner II Diners should be deployed on the Crescent and Cardinal as the first priority (just required 6 Viewliner II Diners, with still leftovers for other service). Yes, some Viewliner II Diners are needed for reserve, but no more than 4, especially if the Viewliner I prototype is put into regular rotation or used as a spare, which it absolutely could be. Beech Grove workers did a GREAT JOB restoring this car back to service. 

There's one other VIewliner I Prototype Sleeper that could also be sent to Beech Grove, gutted, and perhaps used even as a table or lounge car of sorts; or used even as a baggage car. Course Amtrak has PLENTY of unused and stored baggage cars too. The Viewliner utilization drives me CRAZY - all Viewliner types. Unbelievable!  

Seems like 2 guys, one on either side of the train each with a Harbor Freight power washer could do the trick as the trains roll past leaving the yard.

Posted from iPhone

PE-717 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Seems like 2 guys, one on either side of the train
> each with a Harbor Freight power washer could do
> the trick as the trains roll past leaving the
> yard.
>
> Posted from iPhone

You know, that's been brought up a bunch of times before, quite logically. But there was a post a few weeks back (can't locate it, sorry) in which someone who runs a service business described trying to get such a contract with Amtrak. Nothing fancy, a few workers, hoses and buckets, approved detergents and brushes, etc. His firm eventually decided to pass on the job. Amtrak's insurance, bonding and other requirements were just prohibitively costly.

That's a story I've heard before, even years ago. A fuel supplier once told me years back about how many hoops his firm had to jump through to get a locomotive refueling supplier contract, using the smaller tank trucks that we've all seen refueling Amtrak and VIA locos here and there. They serviced all kinds of users, from construction sites and heavy equipment used there, to fuel tanks for backup generators at public buildings and hospitals, to temporary diesel generators placed at event sites. But getting the Amtrak contract was particularly challenging.

It would be easy to jump on Amtrak for such apparently steep requirements. But they will of course be subject to the full range of regulatory demands for any supplier, but perhaps even more as a quasi-governmental entity. They may also have to separately satisfy host railroads whose property they might enter to serve an Amtrak train on the host railroad's track. As well as other public entities (like a public agency which owns a station and access property). And as such, they're going to be especially concerned to cross all of the t's and dot all of the i's particularly carefully, because their customers are also taxpayers with a direct voice to Amtrak's key public funding source - in Congress. That can all trickle down to their suppliers. Such scenarios wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.

But somehow Amtrak has got to figure this out - and soon. The dirty or dingy windows represent poor service to the customer on a very fundamental part of the product. Even as I state all of the above caveats, I also hold that all of those issues are entirely solvable. And they are far from being rocket science. Get this resolved, Amtrak, please.

MC

ronald321 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Such a RIDICULOUS problem to have.  Wouldn't'
> you agree?
>
> Gardner should go on TV and say (with tears and a
> quivering chin) and say--
> "Somebody please help me--I don't know how to wash
> windows"
>
> Behind the scene, he's probably thinking--"to hell
> with those windows--washing them will increase
> costs".

Wasn't Gardner a CEO at an airline? Were his planes, let alone its windows, ever dirty? It's the polar opposite with Amtrak. This just shows you how much he, the now current CEO of Amtrak, thinks of the paying passengers riding on the "lowly" government-funded railroad. Keep those bonus checks coming, he says. 

Drew Mitchem
Centralia, WA

"Who wants to start a business where we hire unskilled labor with a hard hat, a safety vest,provided with a squegie, soap, and hose with water."

It is done in Baltimore at many street intersections.

B&O Bill

amtrak34east Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ronald321 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Such a RIDICULOUS problem to have. 
> Wouldn't'
> > you agree?
> >
> > Gardner should go on TV and say (with tears and
> a
> > quivering chin) and say--
> > "Somebody please help me--I don't know how to
> wash
> > windows"
> >
> > Behind the scene, he's probably thinking--"to
> hell
> > with those windows--washing them will increase
> > costs".
>
> Wasn't Gardner a CEO at an airline? Were his
> planes, let alone its windows, ever dirty? It's
> the polar opposite with Amtrak. This just shows
> you how much he, the now current CEO of Amtrak,
> thinks of the paying passengers riding on the
> "lowly" government-funded railroad. Keep those
> bonus checks coming, he says. 

No, Gardner has never worked at an airline - let alone been CEO of an airline. Gardner is an insider that has worked at Amtrak much of his career. Before that he was a Congressional staffer that worked on rail related matters. The airline guys were former CEOs Richard Anderson and Bill Flynn. Some of the people that Anderson brought in such as Roger Harris that are still there were airline executives however.

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Does Amtrak have stored ViewLiner diners which
> > could be substituted for cafe cars on Midwest
> > trains?
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> STORED - yes, but they need to be serviced. Out of
> 25 Viewliner Diners, only 11 are assigned (Lake
> Shore, Silver Star, Silver Meteor train sets),
> while 14 and one prototype Viewliner I are stored.

I’ve made this explanation a number of times before but I’ll make it again because it’s important. It’s more like 7 or 8 that are stored (which are essentially deferred overhauls). It’s either 17 or 18 that are active (I forget the exact number) - 11 on trains at any one time with 6 or 7 that are withheld for protects, repairs, and overhaul. There’s an important difference between cars serving as protects, shop and overhaul count, and truly stored/mothballed cars - which are not maintained and do not spend time operating on trains. All 17 or 18 of those active cars cycle through and spend time running on trains. 5 of the truly stored VL2 diners are currently undergoing overhaul and will return to the active fleet when complete. The 5 returning cars will be used to equip the Crescent which takes 4 - and one more protect. Admittedly - the percentage of active cars that are in revenue service is rather low in the Viewliner II fleet and I’m not saying that the number of revenue cars vs active should be viewed as acceptable - it’s possible they are being overly conservative - but I also don’t know what the reliability of the cars has been, if there have been failure issues, and what the lead time is on parts - so I can’t say for sure whether it’s inappropriate or overly conservative or not because that would require data I don’t have. If the Viewliner II cars have been unreliable or have frequent component failures that have lead time issues than a higher shop count would be appropriate - but again I really don’t know. But I do think it is important to point out that one should not consider an active protect car or one undergoing repairs or overhaul as stored.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/24 04:59 by lordsigma.

lordsigma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jp1822 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Lackawanna484 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Does Amtrak have stored ViewLiner diners
> which
> > > could be substituted for cafe cars on Midwest
> > > trains?
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
> >
> > STORED - yes, but they need to be serviced. Out
> of
> > 25 Viewliner Diners, only 11 are assigned (Lake
> > Shore, Silver Star, Silver Meteor train sets),
> > while 14 and one prototype Viewliner I are
> stored.
>
> I’ve made this explanation a number of times
> before but I’ll make it again because it’s
> important. It’s more like 7 or 8 that are stored
> (which are essentially deferred overhauls). It’s
> either 17 or 18 that are active (I forget the
> exact number) - 11 on trains at any one time with
> 6 or 7 that are withheld for protects, repairs,
> and overhaul. There’s an important difference
> between cars serving as protects, shop and
> overhaul count, and truly stored/mothballed cars -
> which are not maintained and do not spend time
> operating on trains. All 17 or 18 of those active
> cars cycle through and spend time running on
> trains. 5 of the truly stored VL2 diners are
> currently undergoing overhaul and will return to
> the active fleet when complete. The 5 returning
> cars will be used to equip the Crescent which
> takes 4 - and one more protect. Admittedly - the
> percentage of active cars that are in revenue
> service is rather low in the Viewliner II fleet
> and I’m not saying that the number of revenue
> cars vs active should be viewed as acceptable -
> it’s possible they are being overly conservative
> - but I also don’t know what the reliability of
> the cars has been, if there have been failure
> issues, and what the lead time is on parts - so I
> can’t say for sure whether it’s inappropriate
> or overly conservative or not because that would
> require data I don’t have. If the Viewliner II
> cars have been unreliable or have frequent
> component failures that have lead time issues than
> a higher shop count would be appropriate - but
> again I really don’t know. But I do think it is
> important to point out that one should not
> consider an active protect car or one undergoing
> repairs or overhaul as stored.

And I've made this explanation before. You can slice and dice this any which way you want, but the fact remains:

- 11 Viewliner II Diner Cars are assigned and in service.
- 14 VIewliner II Diner Cars are NOT assigned to service. 
- 1 Viewliner I Diner is NOT assigned to service.

That's horrendous! And Amtrak has not caught up or made progress on this stat in over two years!!! Since delivered, as new units, only a max of 11 Viewliner II Diners out of 26 have ever been "assigned in service." These are brand new cars and the theory has always been there should be less "protect" and reserves needed if its managed right. Netting out the protect/maintenance, this still leaves 10 cars that are NOT in service and assigned to consists (Viewliner II Sleepers PLUS a Viewliner I Diner prototype). Out of those 10, Amtrak has decided to either STORE them, or keep MORE in reserve. And yes, it was for cost savings two years ago.

This should have been caught up by now, and hopefully it will be. These are brand new cars with parts supply delivered prior to COVID. It's not good management and utilization of the fleet. And it gets worse if you go back further in time. Amtrak has poor utilization of the Viewliner II Diners and a backlog of maintenance on these Viewliner II Diners. They have a good reliability rate. 

Amtrak has had two years now to catch the Viewliner II Diners up to operational status and they haven't made any progress in getting more Viewliner II Diners out on the road at all. I get the reasons, but here's the numbers and stats. At this time, in a perfect world (not the Amtrak world clearly) 20 Viewliner II Diners should be assigned to service, with 6 in protect/maintenance reserve (including the VIewliner I Diner prototype).

From 2004 to 2018, 39 to 40 Viewliner I sleepers were assigned to service, with a 20% reserve/maintenance rate (10 Viewliners). There's 50 "active" Viewliner I Sleepers in the fleet during that time, and remains so today.   
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/11/24 05:30 by jp1822.

Just declaring a car as stored doesn't make it a good idea. Using it and storing it before required shopping isn't a good idea, either. Esp when much older equipment is limping along.

Amtrak should be looking at every piece of rolling stock as a potential revenue generator.

Posted from Android

lordsigma Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> amtrak34east Wrote:

> >
> > Wasn't Gardner a CEO at an airline? Were his
> > planes, let alone its windows, ever dirty? It's
> > the polar opposite with Amtrak. This just shows
> > you how much he, the now current CEO of Amtrak,
> > thinks of the paying passengers riding on the
> > "lowly" government-funded railroad. Keep those
> > bonus checks coming, he says. 
>
> No, Gardner has never worked at an airline - let
> alone been CEO of an airline. Gardner is an
> insider that has worked at Amtrak much of his
> career. Before that he was a Congressional staffer
> that worked on rail related matters. The airline
> guys were former CEOs Richard Anderson and Bill
> Flynn. Some of the people that Anderson brought in
> such as Roger Harris that are still there were
> airline executives however.

Thank you for the clarification. Still sounds like a complete moron though. I'll check out #11 departing Centralia, WA today and see if the train wash in Seattle is operational.......

Drew Mitchem
Centralia, WA