Passenger Trains > Hiawatha - Good News x2

336-337 stand in set has been completely washed somehow. P42 204 trailing facing south. Are the Chicago wash rack renovations completed? 

331-334-335-338-339-342 set with the 90200 and 4614 now has 6 coaches instead of 5. A venture coach has been added. Not sure if this is temporary or not. 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/26/24 14:29 by sethamtrak.

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Nice to see a clean shining train. Cleanliness will help improve morale with the workers and passenger perception of Amtrak

Posted from iPhone

So Amtrak is still using 35+ year-old Horizons and 23+ year old P42s instead of the brand new Chargers and Venture coaches (Business Class, Coach/Cab, and Coach Cars in the 97 inventory number range). Delivery of the Venture passenger cars for the Midwest begain in 2018. It's now 2024 and clearly they are lacking regular and reliable assignment for the purpose order. The Ventures and Chargers are WAY over due for reliable and good operational service. This is absolutely absurd and a sad situation. I am glad that they have expanded the capacity on the Hiawathas, but it's still a crazy situation. 

Maybe Amtrak needs to start herding in some NJT "Comet" based car bodies and converting them to Amtrak interior standards as stand-ins for reliable service in the Amtrak Midwest. NJT is looking to retire some of these cars in the near future as more multilevels arrive........

We need Horizon II!

Again, no good news goes unpunished.

Glad to see clean equipment. Maybe the Chicago washer is finally back in service. It would seem to be about ready to be working based on previous schedules for the renewal work that I've seen. In any case, a clean train is good news - once again.

Could the use of the Horizons it be as simple as the Venture order wasn't big enough? The new Borealis service has taken some cars, although not Ventures to my knowledge. Traffic is up for expanded Hiawatha consists. Traffic is also strong from what I can see on Michigan trains and Chicago - St. Louis - KC.

I had wondered how Amtrak and the Amtrak Midwest states were going to handle expanded services if and when they came, or expanded consists on existing services, and whether the Venture order was large enough. Maybe it wasn't as traffic has bounced back nicely. But the dollars to buy were what they were, and maybe they bought as much only as they could afford and not what was really needed for some additional capacity (remember, it's the states that did the buying, not Amtrak). Maybe. Would have to research that more to be sure.

If so, it's a good problem to have. And if so, I find it hard to criticize the use of the Horizons on the Hiawatha service or any other train. And except for the Venture cafes that are now being deployed, to the best of my knowledge the Venture Coach and Business Class car fleet is fully in service, and the cars are reasonably reliable and keeping their in-service cycles (the Chargers are a different story).

And the Horizons with the refreshed interiors aren't bad at all. Frankly, the newer grey seats in the refreshed cars (or even the old seats pre-refresh) are more comfortable than the new Venture seats, in either Coach or Business Class. I've got plenty of experience with both to make that judgment here in the Midwest. I've seen passengers leave a new Venture seat and move to a seat in the Horizon if there was one in the consist, just for a more comfortable seat (and I've almost done it myself).

So along with "kevink" I'm not seeing the problem here. Especially when some of us have been saying repeatedly that Amtrak needs to keep Horizon and Amfleet cars in a reserve fleet. So, here that very thing is kinda being done, and that is an issue? Sorry, with respect, but I'm having some trouble with that.

MC

Late 1340 did a quick turn as the 20 minute late 341 tonight. They used the Borealis set for 341 tonight. This will become 332 tomorrow morning and do a quick turn as 1333. Looking at Amtrak.com this is the new operating plan. Eliminates the set that used to run as 332 and sit for 10 hours until 341. Maybe that's why they had a venture to spare earlier for the other set. 

Good luck to them. That's a quick turn between 9:30am and 11:05 to turn, service and burn as 1333. 

Also, first ALC42 to lead a regular Hiawatha tomorrow morning as 332 (to the best of my knowledge). 

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Thanks for that news update, which helps to explain the situation. Good luck to Amtrak with the tight turnarounds. High utilization for sure, and hopefully they will be able to pull it off with consistency.

MC

The MBTA is also ditching single level cars. Amtrak could even pick up cab cars as all the single level cabs are now stored and off the active roster.

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So Amtrak is still using 35+ year-old Horizons and
> 23+ year old P42s instead of the brand new
> Chargers and Venture coaches (Business Class,
> Coach/Cab, and Coach Cars in the 97 inventory
> number range). Delivery of the Venture passenger
> cars for the Midwest begain in 2018. It's now 2024
> and clearly they are lacking regular and reliable
> assignment for the purpose order. The Ventures and
> Chargers are WAY over due for reliable and good
> operational service. This is absolutely absurd and
> a sad situation. I am glad that they have expanded
> the capacity on the Hiawathas, but it's still a
> crazy situation. 
>
> Maybe Amtrak needs to start herding in some NJT
> "Comet" based car bodies and converting them to
> Amtrak interior standards as stand-ins for
> reliable service in the Amtrak Midwest. NJT is
> looking to retire some of these cars in the near
> future as more multilevels arrive........

sethamtrak Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Late 1340 did a quick turn as the 20 minute late
> 341 tonight. They used the Borealis set for 341
> tonight. This will become 332 tomorrow morning and
> do a quick turn as 1333. Looking at Amtrak.com
> this is the new operating plan. Eliminates the set
> that used to run as 332 and sit for 10 hours until
> 341. Maybe that's why they had a venture to spare
> earlier for the other set. 
>
> Good luck to them. That's a quick turn between
> 9:30am and 11:05 to turn, service and burn as
> 1333. 
>
> Also, first ALC42 to lead a regular Hiawatha
> tomorrow morning as 332 (to the best of my
> knowledge). 

Are they going to change out the power between 332/1333 as needed?

Posted from Android

CubsFanJohn Wrote:

> Are they going to change out the power between
> 332/1333 as needed?

Good question, I figure that would be the only time to swap out a bad order or change engines. Wonder if the set will even go to the yard in the hour and 1/2 the train is in Chicago. Another option is to delay 341 to swap power for the next day rather than *potentially* delay 1333.  

ironmtn Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Glad to see clean equipment. Maybe the Chicago
> washer is finally back in service. It would seem
> to be about ready to be working based on previous
> schedules for the renewal work that I've seen. In
> any case, a clean train is good news - once
> again.
>
> Could the use of the Horizons it be as simple as
> the Venture order wasn't big enough? The new
> Borealis service has taken some cars, although not
> Ventures to my knowledge. Traffic is up for
> expanded Hiawatha consists. Traffic is also strong
> from what I can see on Michigan trains and Chicago
> - St. Louis - KC.
>
> I had wondered how Amtrak and the Amtrak Midwest
> states were going to handle expanded services if
> and when they came, or expanded consists on
> existing services, and whether the Venture order
> was large enough. Maybe it wasn't as traffic has
> bounced back nicely. But the dollars to buy were
> what they were, and maybe they bought as much only
> as they could afford and not what was really
> needed for some additional capacity (remember,
> it's the states that did the buying, not Amtrak).
> Maybe. Would have to research that more to be
> sure.
>
> If so, it's a good problem to have. And if so, I
> find it hard to criticize the use of the Horizons
> on the Hiawatha service or any other train. And
> except for the Venture cafes that are now being
> deployed, to the best of my knowledge the Venture
> Coach and Business Class car fleet is fully in
> service, and the cars are reasonably reliable and
> keeping their in-service cycles (the Chargers are
> a different story).
>
> And the Horizons with the refreshed interiors
> aren't bad at all. Frankly, the newer grey seats
> in the refreshed cars (or even the old seats
> pre-refresh) are more comfortable than the new
> Venture seats, in either Coach or Business Class.
> I've got plenty of experience with both to make
> that judgment here in the Midwest. I've seen
> passengers leave a new Venture seat and move to a
> seat in the Horizon if there was one in the
> consist, just for a more comfortable seat (and
> I've almost done it myself).
>
> So along with "kevink" I'm not seeing the problem
> here. Especially when some of us have been saying
> repeatedly that Amtrak needs to keep Horizon and
> Amfleet cars in a reserve fleet. So, here that
> very thing is kinda being done, and that is an
> issue? Sorry, with respect, but I'm having some
> trouble with that.
>
> MC

The main issue or question I have - are all 97 Midwestern Venture units now in service? By my count they are not. That was the basis of my criticism. Otherwise, I agree with your points. 

97 = 34 married pairs, 26 single cars, 3 single cab cars.

So happy to learn of increased capacity....and clean trainsets!!!!
Amen!

Thanks for the update.

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> The main issue or question I have - are all 97
> Midwestern Venture units now in service? By my
> count they are not. That was the basis of my
> criticism. Otherwise, I agree with your points. 
>
> 97 = 34 married pairs, 26 single cars, 3 single
> cab cars.

You've asked about or made a statement about this matter before. Once again, to the best of my knowledge, all straight Coach and Business Class cars (actually Business Class / Coach, since they have a small 2-2 Coach seating section of about four or five rows at one end, with the rest of the car 2-1 Business Class) have been delivered. The 17 Cafe cars (actually mixed Coach / Cafe) are still being delivered, a process which has (finally!) started with the first few cars of the type, which are now in service.

As for the cab cars, are you sure you are not looking at another state's or regional operator's order regarding those? I honestly cannot recall there being any cab cars in the Amtrak Midwest order, and I can't find any mention of them in doing a search.

You are looking at the Amtrak Midwest order by configuration. I am looking at them by service type, which I think is a more descriptive and useful perspective because two service types could be mixed in a configuration. For example, there could be a married pair of two straight Coaches (as there are, with a wide gangway vestibule between them), or a Business Class / Coach - straight Coach married pair (with gangway vestibule), or a straight Coach - Cafe-Coach married pair (which is my understanding that many of the Cafes are).

**************

So accounting for the deliveries only by configuration rather than service type can perhaps be a bit misleading, because the straight Coach of a married pair to serve with a Cafe - Coach might have been delivered and  fully accepted, but perhaps not able to be placed into service since it lacked its undelivered partner Cafe - Coach. It's my understanding that this has occurred in some cases. That information is from a knowledgeable third party, and not from any media or official source, however. And if so, then why not use those Coaches anyway in some other way while waiting for their partner Cafe to be delivered? Well, perhaps because there are no other available drawbar / gangway vestibule connections "available" - all of those types of couplings are in service with all of the other cars that are in service, and there are no more currently open and "available" for use in making up a consist.

If this is true, it points out the limitations of a married-pair configuration with other than a standard knuckle coupler and standard-width vestibule. It's possible to have a situation where there is no other available car to mate it with if all other couplings of that type are in service, and there are no other spares available to couple to at the open gangway vestibule end.

And this is a problem in another way too. At the gangway end of the car, the restroom entry is outside the last pair of doors from the passenger seating section to the vestibule area, and within the space of the open gangway vestibule space, with no further closure all the way to the coupling and a completely open, quite wide gangway vestibule end.

Thus, if separated from its married mate, the car is completely open-ended at the wide gangway vestibule. I suppose it could be closed off for safety from passenger access by disabling / locking the sliding doors from the seating section into the gangway vestibule / restroom section, and then operated that way, as in any car without another coupled at one end. But that takes a restroom out of service, which is a problem. And that gangway vestibule would be completely open to weather - I don't think there is (nor have I seen) any kind of closure curtain or door to seal it off from weather or even just blowing dust and debris if operated at speed (much less sitting in a yard).

That said, I really, really like the wide, easily accessible gangway vestibules at the married-pair end of Venture cars. They offer much more space, much easier boarding and detraining, and easier and safer movement between cars than older standard vestibules with their fairly narrow end doors which must both be opened in close proximity.

But, the gangway vestibule / married pair design does introduce some very real problems, and a possible operational inefficiency and degree of inflexibility as compared to standard vestibule cars. This is nothing new - there have been plenty of married-pair passenger car designs in the past, and these kinds of operational factors have long been known and understood. All things considered, and as much as I really, really like the gangway vestibule design, if I were doing the procurement at IDOT with Amtrak and the other states for the Amtrak Midwest coalition, I would have chosen all standard vestibules and couplings to maintain complete operational flexibility in support of service reliability - which is to me always the paramount number one criterion. But that would be an issue in terms of legally required handicapped accessibility, which is far superior in the gangway vestibule design. So a preference for operational flexibility with standard vestibules only is probably not possible.

All of this, or parts of it, may or may not be correct. I willingly stand to be corrected if I'm not right, and welcome any correction or other information. I've said some of this before, and to date no one has corrected me here on TO. Nor have I seen any other source which suggests otherwise. So, for now, I continue to believe that this information is correct.

One more point. Many of us have been concerned about the slow delivery pace of the Venture cars. Count me as one more. But the production throughput of the Siemens facility near Sacramento is fairly small by comparison to the huge facilities of Pullman, Budd, ACF and St. Louis Car in the past, any one of which almost certainly had productive capacity and throughput well in excess of the Siemens facility, much less the total capacity of all of those builders together. And that plant is building locomotives too - something that those older carbuilders never did (if you exclude "motive power" doodlebugs, RDCs and EMU cars). That in part is probably why Siemens is building another plant in North Carolina.

Not only that, but the initial quality seems to be lower, with reports of more repairs and adjustments before final acceptance by IDOT and Amtrak on behalf of the Amtrak Midwest coalition. That the built cars are being thoroughly inspected and fixed before acceptance is a good thing - I don't think any of us would want it any other way. But we would also certainly have preferred that no such repairs were needed, just as we want that in automobiles that we buy.

Does that mean the design is no good, or that Siemens is a low-quality manufacturer? Maybe, but perhaps also doubtful. It's probably more than anything a reflection of a relatively inexperienced, lower-skilled workforce, fairly quickly hired-in, ramped up and trained in a lean operating environment, which just lacks the decades of continued, highly skilled experience that was present at a Budd, Pullman, ACF or St. Louis Car plant. And that in turn is the end result of our de-facto "policy" as a nation to have long ago discarded any priority on passenger rail as an fully integrated, continuing and extensive partner in a comprehensive, multi-modal ground transportation system. Something the Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, Indians and others never did. And thus they kept passenger car manufacturing capacity - and a skilled, experienced workforce - in a way that we did not. As usual, it all comes home to roost at some point.

************

But all of that is another problem, although related. Bottom line: I believe that all of the straight Coach and Coach - Business Class cars have been delivered and accepted, although all may not be in service due to a lack of a married-pair mate due to the delayed delivery of the Cafe-Coach cars (now being delivered). But as noted, I willingly stand for correction.

And I thank you for your continued concern for accounting for the usage / in-service / out-of-service numbers for Amtrak equipment. That is far in excess of the tracking that I do, which is at a more generalized level. It is a worthy contribution to the discussion, and helps in the spirit of all of our discussion to keep Amtrak "honest" in its fleet usage patterns. Which I think many of us agree could be better, in many ways.

MC

Below is from an earlier Amtrak press release. This has been my basis of reference, just an FYI. I think this aligns to the above analysis, but also mentions that cab cars for Amtrak Midwest - which were to be exclusive for the Hiawatha. Again, not sure if this order has been modified (???). But would it be fair to say that everything for Amtrak Midwest Ventures has been "delivered" but there are still issues whereas not all 97 cars are not fully onsite (e.g. cafe, cab cars) or assigned, hence leading to the "shortage" we are seeing. I guess that's the long and short of it? Hope that makes sense. However, the acceptance, delivery, and operational reliability of the Venture coaches is what's most frustrating as it's leading to less capacity for Amtrak Midwest passenger train service, and thus trains can't meet demand. Horizons are being substituted, which is great, but Horizon cars have also been dispersed to the Pacific Northwest to Maine!

Amtrak Midwest Service – Ventures
Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, and Wisconsin have ordered 97 Venture cars for the Amtrak Midwest routes, including the Blue Water, Hiawatha, Illini, Saluki, Illinois Zephyr, Carl Sandburg, Lincoln, Missouri River Runner, Pere Marquette and Wolverine. Of the 97 cars, 68 are built as married pairs (two cars semi-permanently coupled with open gangways), while the remaining 29 are single (unmarried) cars with traditional gangways. Half of the married pairs (17) have a café car and an economy coach, while the remaining 17 have a combination business class/economy class coach and an economy-only coach. The business class and café cars have two vestibules each, while the economy coaches have one. This arrangement—unique among Venture operators—allows trains to be sized to meet the travel demands of individual routes and allows business class seating and cafe cars to be added or removed. Among the 29 single cars are three cab cars with economy seating for exclusive use on Hiawatha Service trains.
 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/24 15:23 by jp1822.

jp1822 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Below is from an earlier Amtrak press release.
> This has been my basis of reference, just an FYI.
> I think this aligns to the above analysis, but
> also mentions that cab cars for Amtrak Midwest -
> which were to be exclusive for the Hiawatha.
> Again, not sure if this order has been modified
> (???). But would it be fair to say that everything
> for Amtrak Midwest Ventures has been "delivered"
> but there are still issues whereas not all 97 cars
> are not fully onsite (e.g. cafe, cab cars) or
> assigned, hence leading to the "shortage" we are
> seeing. I guess that's the long and short of it?
> Hope that makes sense.

Yes, I think it makes sense, and I agree that's the "long and short of it". And the lack of fully in-service cars, for whatever reason, is leading to an equipment shortage - agree. Thanks for your summary.

> However, the acceptance,
> delivery, and operational reliability of the
> Venture coaches is what's most frustrating as it's
> leading to less capacity for Amtrak Midwest
> passenger train service, and thus trains can't
> meet demand. Horizons are being substituted, which
> is great, but Horizon cars have also been
> dispersed to the Pacific Northwest to Maine!
>

Even if the whole process is understandable, it is still frustrating. On that too I agree. And I can only hope it will be better for the Airos.

> Amtrak Midwest Service – Ventures
> Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, and Wisconsin have
> ordered 97 Venture cars for the Amtrak
> Midwest routes, including the Blue Water,
> Hiawatha, Illini, Saluki, Illinois Zephyr, Carl
> Sandburg, Lincoln, Missouri River Runner, Pere
> Marquette and Wolverine. Of the 97 cars, 68 are
> built as married pairs (two cars semi-permanently
> coupled with open gangways), while the remaining
> 29 are single (unmarried) cars with traditional
> gangways. Half of the married pairs (17) have a
> café car and an economy coach, while the
> remaining 17 have a combination business
> class/economy class coach and an economy-only
> coach. The business class and café cars have two
> vestibules each, while the economy coaches have
> one. This arrangement—unique among Venture
> operators—allows trains to be sized to meet the
> travel demands of individual routes and allows
> business class seating and cafe cars to be added
> or removed. Among the 29 single cars are three cab
> cars with economy seating for exclusive use
> on Hiawatha Service trains.
>  

Okay, well there it is. Glad to know that it's official, and it makes perfect sense to have those three cab cars for the Hiawathas. Somehow I had missed that in all of the other articles on the Amtrak Midwest Venture equipment I had seen, or that fact wasn't mentioned in those sources. Thanks for confirming your point.

But I don't think anybody has seen hide nor hair of them. I think some Caltrans San Joaquiin and VIA Corridor cab cars have been delivered. But have any for Amtrak Midwest Hiawathas been delivered? Have you or anyone seen a photo of one of them? I don't think I have, and I can't find a photo online of an actual car in a search. If not yet delivered - much less if not yet accepted and in service - then yes, we would have to count them as "uncompleted" or "undelivered" or "delivered but not yet accepted" - whichever would be the correct status. Which all still boils down to Missing in Action. Unfortunately.

Thanks for responding and putting these facts forward. I gladly stand corrected on my errors. Such discussion is all part of the process of peeling back the layers of the onion to fully understand all of this, and is all part of the process of our advocacy and watchdog work with regard to Amtrak and this equipment.

MC



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/27/24 19:30 by ironmtn.