Passenger Trains > Profit / Loss

Considering passenger train costs ( equipment costs, wages, dining car expense loss, host railroad fees,etc.) what would a profitable long distance train consist of assuming load was near capacity? Using a mix of both coaches and sleepers. I mean take the Chicago to LA route. Would a train with say 4 sleepers and 6 coaches make money or lose money?

Posted from iPhone

Will be interesting to see what the incoming Secretary of Transportation does concerning Amtrak. With this new administration's return on investment mindset, it would seem anything is possible.
—Mac

I've watched as well as can be expected, and there seems a thread of "providing servic3..." running through some seeming draconian changes.  But if anyone n the administration balances service given wth cost, Amtrak would be gone in a week. Or...Amtrak will be shaken up to provide  the service it was intended to give.  I'm hoping for shake up...

jmambrose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Considering passenger train costs ( equipment
> costs, wages, dining car expense loss, host
> railroad fees,etc.) what would a profitable long
> distance train consist of assuming load was near
> capacity? Using a mix of both coaches and
> sleepers. I mean take the Chicago to LA route.
> Would a train with say 4 sleepers and 6 coaches
> make money or lose money?
>
> Posted from iPhone

I think the Southwest Chief is not a good example, but on the contrary, I think the Empire Builder and CA Zephyr are better examples as you have a lot of "corridors within corridors" that these national network trains cover. Empire Builder has a big following from Grand Forks to Chicago, Glacier/Whitefish to Portland/Seattle, and even Grand Forks to Spokane, as much as Amtrak never wants to show this. The height of the Empire Builder's "long distance ridership" is actually the second day of travel (as well as second day of travel on the CA Zephyr) as the Diner often got tapped out when it was free reign for coach and sleeping car passengers to have access to the Superliner Diner. A second wait staff person often ran between Denver and Salt Lake City for years, and the Empire Builder tried to meet Diner demand by doing an "order ahead" of Chicken dinner for passengers. Is it always this way, no, but peak period - yes. In peak period the Empire Builder operates with Superliner Trans-Dorm with partial revenue space, two Seattle Superliner Sleepers, one Portland Superliner Sleeper, and Boardman and Gunn always wanted a second Portland Sleeper but they couldn't figure out how to truly overcome the second day surge of passengers on the food cars - just one Superliner Sightseer Lounge with its cafe and one Superliner Diner. One plan called for adding a Cross Country Cafe car to the Portland section. Anderson actually ran the second Portland Sleeper for one season for a couple of months in 2018 but it was a calamity because he didn't have the Superliner Cross Country Cafe added.let alone an option for "buying chicken dinners" that could be loaded ahead at Wolf Point, MT.

Lake Shore Limited ran with four Viewliner Sleepers one summer and it led to higher ridership. 

I would argue that the elasticity of the long distance trains in their peak periods - whenever they are for various different long distance trains - have never been tested to their fullest. The Auto Train certainly gets its priority. Claytor's formula was to NOT restrict capacity but to expand it it to increase revenues, and even saying Amtrak doesn't have an expense problem, but it has a revenue problem. VIA has also come up with the idea of a "higher class sleeper" offering, a Sleeper Plus offering, and then the Economy (basic coach). offering. Does Amtrak need a a better tiered system of service? But the service has to be worth it and Amtrak needs to deliver on the service. Warrington thought of a east-west premium sleeper service from say Washington DC to the West Coast (e.g. San Francisco). But he lacked the equipment and amenity building to pull that off. VIA capitalized on its prize winning car - the Park Car - to create Prestige Class (plus improved sleepers). Gunn thought about trying to move the "Deluxe Sleepers" from the Auto Train to the CA Zephyr with an upscale experience that would have also captured an additional Superliner Sightseer Lounge Car - at least from Denver and West, but that never happened either. The Rocky Mountaineer recently invaded that upscale market from Denver to Moab (the heart of the Rockies). Genius move with Silver Leaf Cars and then Silver Leaf Plus whose passengers have access to a private lounge. But let me be clear, there always needs to be a basic coach and sleeper class. But a "coach touring" or "sleeper prestige" would also garner the revenue if Amtrak expanded its consists, especially with less private cars being able to roam the system. 

I was excited to see a variety of sleeper options and "some amenities for the new LD equipment designs, but I fear they are going to be downgraded for builder simplicity - especially the wrap around windows suggested for coach and sleeper space. 

Amtrak's answer to creating a third tier of single level coach service that was supposed to be a little bit of a premium was just substituting an Amfleet II car in the consist. But there was really no major differentiation in paying the premium (e.g. what did people get for paying more - not much more in service). Honestly, just an Amfleet II coach with "business class" slapped on to it when regular coach passengers got the same. And is "business class" the right branding if they did include extra service? The term of "Touring" or "Prestige" or "Custom" or "Coach Classic" or "Crescent Premium" would have been better. The Cardinal got a half business class car and half table car (Amfleet I business class car with 2-1 leather seating). That came close, as people then had the option of going between their 2-1 plush seating and table seating for viewing, work, or conversation. But the cafe - I believe was unstaffed (why not sell premium drinks for part of the ride like the private roads did to bring in that extra revenue). But they really sank the train because the "viewing" was the Amslit windows on the Cardinal - the MOST scenic long distance train in the East. Performance Improvement Plans done by Brian Rosenwald (who had done the Pacific Parlor Car on the Coast Starlight) recommended short domes be added for a premium experience between Washington DC and Chicago for the Cardinal. When the Great Dome was on the Cardinal - two seasons and just a few times at best - it was an absolutely SOLD OUT TRAIN - yet only "people in the know" knew about the experience. On my one trip with the Great Dome, the conductor boarding at Montgomery, WV - I believe that was the crew change point heading east - thought the Great Dome was deadheading and wasn't supposed to be open to the public until some of the public insisted that it should be. The conductor had to call train ops in Wilmington, DE to confirm it was an "amenity" that had been added. Beverages, drinks, and meals would have been a sell out in the dome. 

Sadly the current value paid to ride Amtrak on long distance trains needs serious thought and dissection to see if it meets the quality or expected service. In other wirds is there a balance between value paid and service given. Does value = service. That should be a standard metric for Amtrak management, not just abitrarily keeping things always the same and just banging out more higher prices for same service. In most cases I think Amtrak fails at this on LD trains because of inconsistient product and lack of thinking outside of the box to attract both basic ridership and high end ridership. And it doesn't mean that you have to order new cars, or a fleet of new cars, as Rocky Mountaineer and VIA Rail have proven over and over. Prestige class is typically sold out well in advance and VIA Rail outwardly admits it brings down the Canadian's subsidy. 

Just my two, three and four cents.   



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/24/25 17:22 by jp1822.

Amtrak leaves some revenue on the table by not having sales managers /  sales plans for specific trains.  For example, many snowbirds here in Florida are surprised to learn the Auto-Train exists, and could carry their car north to summer homes. Surprised to learn something that's been around for 50+ years exists.  There's no advertising, no infomercials, etc.  But, soehow, even in the off season and shoulder season, Amtrak can sell a few tickets and haul a few cars. With some advertising in Naples, Fort Lauderdale, etc maybe they would sell a lot more in the less busy seasons.

Marketing and branding sucks at Amtrak these days, and this was once their biggest strong point till early 2000's. 

jmambrose Wrote in part:
-------------------------------------------------------
> ? Using a mix of both coaches and
> sleepers. I mean take the Chicago to LA route.
> Would a train with say 4 sleepers and 6 coaches
> make money or lose money?
>
> Posted from iPhone

We will never know for sure becuase of Amrtrak's completely opaque accounting system. How much does a diner really cost when you have costs allocated across mulitple trains. 

Talk about leaving money on the table?

How about MAIL & EXPRESS?

No, I’m not talking about 20 boxcars on the end of the Chief, I mean the express and mail that Amjoke has walked away from post pandemic.

A subject for another day.

Regards

Posted from iPhone

On the subject of express, a veteran Amtrak manager, along with a retired vice president of traffic in the private sector, once told me that Amtrak should have designed its big express program to handle just what existing baggage cars, with an extra one now and then for special situations, plus unused coach-baggage compartments and other small empty compartments in Superliners could take.  No huge strings of boxcars or Roadrailers and all their connecting and disconnecting problems.  This, they said, would have left the host railroads with no concerns while maximizing revenue and greatly minimizing costs and operational headaches.  As I recall, David Gunn, reportedly a man very good with numbers, ended up saying that the express operation with those costs and operational headaches was not penciling out and discontinuing the program altogether (he got rid of mail as well).

it was rushed to be implemented, perhaps .....

Fuel and labor are by far the largest costs.

Can't do much about the former, and Amtrak has been fairly naive on the latter. The proepensity to promote from within means many are reluctant to bite the hands from whence they came. Labor Relations people at Amtrak are teddy bears compared to their freight carrier counterparts, and are for the most part heads-down seat warmers.

While the wages earned are justified for the long hours and many days away, a great lot of the staffing related work rules are past their prime, and reform there would somewhat improve the bottom line. Auto train work rules permit attendants to work more than just the car(s) assigned to them, ala the Via model - where you'll see a sleeping car attendant helping in the diner or dome car - working in the diner at meal times or teaming up in the sleepers.

Another Via model that would halve operating crew costs is having a train "manager" (whether this a union or exempt job I do not know) responsible for everything behind the engine. Two engineers up front and no conductors. (Conductors on long-hauls spend most of their time keeping a seat cushion from floating away, and do a fine job of being invisible more often than not; they do little to justify their jobs). Service crew checks tickets upon boarding, and every crew member outside the diner has a radio. At stops once the train is buttoned up the headend is told so and it's ok to proceed. This way the operating crew can concentrate on their job without all the drama in the back to muck with. Yes, it would work here.

I'm surprised more contractual work-rule reform hasn't happened to further feed the leeching bone-us suckers.

As to M&E revenue, it was indeed an awful lot of effort for not much. Today with the decline of all classes of mail and explosive growth of the private package shippers, it would amount to next to nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/25 07:30 by PumpkinHogger.

I cringe when I look inside the baggage cars and see only a couple dozen bags!  All that empty space wasted that could be earning revenue!

For many years, Auto-Train ran on a different set of work rules than the rest of Amtrak.  While the original employees have long since moved on or retired, it would be interesting to see how much difference there is btw the A-T rules and the rest of Amtrak.

For one thing there's an on board service manager in addition to the conductor. You will hear him or her asking why the diner hasn't been opened up at 5.05pm, or calling for a sleeper attendant when that person can't be found. For another thing, there's a LOT of money in tips on many  one night trips.

a737flyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I've watched as well as can be expected, and there
> seems a thread of "providing servic3..." running
> through some seeming draconian changes.  But if
> anyone n the administration balances service given
> wth cost, Amtrak would be gone in a week.
> Or...Amtrak will be shaken up to provide  the
> service it was intended to give.  I'm hoping for
> shake up...

That shake up's a long time coming, ever since Airline Boy was CEO all Amtrak has become is the worst version of itself!

Posted from Android



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/31/25 17:39 by ProAmtrak.

PumpkinHogger Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> While the wages earned are justified for the long
> hours and many days away, a great lot of the
> staffing related work rules are past their prime,
> and reform there would somewhat improve the bottom
> line. Auto train work rules permit attendants to
> work more than just the car(s) assigned to them,
> ala the Via model - where you'll see a sleeping
> car attendant helping in the diner or dome car -
> working in the diner at meal times or teaming up
> in the sleepers.
>
> Another Via model that would halve operating crew
> costs is having a train "manager" (whether this a
> union or exempt job I do not know) responsible for
> everything behind the engine. Two engineers up
> front and no conductors. (Conductors on long-hauls
> spend most of their time keeping a seat cushion
> from floating away, and do a fine job of being
> invisible more often than not; they do little to
> justify their jobs). Service crew checks tickets
> upon boarding, and every crew member outside the
> diner has a radio. At stops once the train is
> buttoned up the headend is told so and it's ok to
> proceed. This way the operating crew can
> concentrate on their job without all the drama in
> the back to muck with. Yes, it would work here.
>
> I'm surprised more contractual work-rule reform
> hasn't happened to further feed the leeching
> bone-us suckers.
>
I've suggested this for over 10 years at Amtrak - for LONG DISTANCE TRAINS ONLY as a way to reduce costs, as it would be a HUGE labor reduction and reduction in maintaining crew bases (from rent, to supplies, etc.). A service manager from end to end, with "attendants." I've even suggested looking at - for LONG DISTANCE TRAINS ONLY - should the engineer be contracted out to the freight RR, thus it's another overnight, time away, hotelling, etc. cost that would be saved. Just pay a contract fee rate to the freight RR. Yes, it would be expensive, but how much are hotel costs at crew stations along the way? And I am all for fair wages and promoting labor, but the system has got to change. No one has ever been willing to take this on, only VIA Rail. 

Baggage cars - Boardman and team ordered them for an initiative that promoted and would increase M&E. That quickly fell off  favor. There were production issues and CAF had to ask Amtrak to reduce the number of Bagg/Dorms. That was a BIG mistake, but unfortunately it had to be done. But at this point I would send those baggage cars to some manufacturer (CAF) and make them into sleepers, slumbercoaches, premium coaches, - something!!!!!! The shell is there, put in the guts! Rocky Mountaineer has created spectacular passenger equipment by altering and re-manufacturing 70 plus year old equipment in some cases! So it can be done. Amtrak even acknowledges with upcoming LD equipment order that a full baggage car is NOT needed. So send those cars back to make them into sleepers sooner than later. Amtrak misses the mark on where they can make revenue and concentrates on where they can cut costs. But they go for cutting costs by removing the flowers from the diner or some other penniless maneuver rather than something more meaningful. Eliminating dining car or cafe staff is not the answer either. 

The trade-off with VIA when the conductor role was abolished was that a second person had to be in the head-end for logistics. I'd rather have that take place and a service manager coordinating with the head-end. 

WP17 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jmambrose Wrote in part:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > ? Using a mix of both coaches and
> > sleepers. I mean take the Chicago to LA route.
> > Would a train with say 4 sleepers and 6 coaches
> > make money or lose money?
> >
> > Posted from iPhone
>
> We will never know for sure becuase of Amrtrak's
> completely opaque accounting system. How much does
> a diner really cost when you have costs allocated
> across mulitple trains. 

Actually Amtrak reports costs by train to the FRA. Avoidable costs and fully allocated. I worked as Director of SEC Reporting in a highly regulated industry. I was also Director for the regulatory reporting for an agency I won’t reveal. Based on my experience regulators don’t tolerate monkey business. I would trust these reports. They’re on the FRA website. Don’t have a link at the moment but when I’m home I’ll post it.

You need to know the fare structure before you can answer this question, don't you? 

As to M&E, I left out a very important point:
Ed Ellis was the head of all that, need one say more? His shenanigans running it got him fired. No one missed his presence and part in what was revealed as an untenable debacle.

This could be on the Nostalgia board now:
https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,502404 



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/25/25 19:13 by PumpkinHogger.

I can recall express fresh flowers out of Portland Union station was a big deal and it didnt require an extra car.
RB

Here is the link to the FRA Amtrak train level financials.  Click on the link Financial Metrics about 10 lines down from the top.   This will lead you to an Excel file with the data.

https://railroads.dot.gov/rail-network-development/passenger-rail/amtrak/intercity-passenger-rail-service-quality-and

No set of financials are perfect.  It would be like counting in the US Census.  Some things are always missed and others have to be estimated.  But I believe these numbers to be reasonably accurate enough to compare train by train.   Note one imperfection that Amtrak should fix.   They do not include depreciation in operating expenses.   But  it should be noted that even the ICC days of pre Amtrak railroads they did not include depreciation in operating costs.   I don't know why.   I do know that the airlines do include depreciation in operating costs, even back in the CAB regulated days.   Industry regulatory diference apparently  and habits change hard.