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Passenger Trains > MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest!Date: 02/03/25 06:51 MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: DutchDragon Ozark Mountain Railcar has posted 8 MBTA Coaches for sale. They look very similiar to Amtrak's Horizon cars.
Maybe the state of Michigan should buy these to suppliment (or replace) the Siemens cars? https://ozarkmountainrailcar.com/railEquipmentGrid.php?search=mbta Date: 02/03/25 07:20 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: westcoastrails And why exactly would Amtrak need to replace the Siemens cars already?
Date: 02/03/25 08:07 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ronald321 westcoastrails
Because the seats in the new Venture coaches are very uncomfortable (speaking from personal experience.) Date: 02/03/25 08:11 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ts1457 ronald321 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > westcoastrails > > Because the seats in the new Venture coaches > are very uncomfortable (speaking from personal > experience.) Easier would be to change the seats, but I do think that acquiring any group of serviceable cars is worthwhile. Date: 02/03/25 08:30 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ronald321 ts1457
I agree -- if they could change out the bottom seat cushions -- it would be a lot better. (easy solution). Yes, they are also very narrow (you sit almost touching shoulders with your seat mate (harder to fix) The Venture coaches would be very nice--if it weren't for these hard seat cushions. They ride like a dream--very quiet and smooth--even through switches. Date: 02/03/25 08:52 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: observer Axle count cars?
Date: 02/03/25 08:52 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: jp1822 ts1457 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > ronald321 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > westcoastrails > > > > Because the seats in the new Venture coaches > > are very uncomfortable (speaking from > personal > > experience.) > > Easier would be to change the seats, but I do > think that acquiring any group of serviceable cars > is worthwhile. I agree - it would give Chicago a back-up train set that they should ALWAYS keep ready to go and on hotel power. There's too much teething problems still going on with the Venture coaches and other equipment that Amtrak has. Plus Superliners subbing for axle count cars. Buy the darn things and rehab them with Amfleet seats. This is not that hard and would not be that expensive. Around 2004 NJT allowed the Jersey Shore Commuters Club to outfit a 1/3 of a NJT Comet coach (same make-up as Horizon) with two conference tables and ex-Metroliner rehabbed lounge seats with pull down trays, etc. It was very comfortable and the Club used it as their second NJT version home-made car up until SuperStorm Sandy swept it into the rising tide of the Metedeconk River/Bay in Bay Head, NJ. Date: 02/03/25 09:25 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: PE-717 The cars on OMR have 3-2 commuter seating so the seats would have to be replaced anyway. Who knows what problems these cars have that would have to be addressed mechanically, structurally, or electrically before they would be useable. Maybe Amtrak could have done something with the Caltrans cars of which were in service and several dozen strong but those are headed to Peru.
Posted from iPhone Date: 02/03/25 09:32 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ts1457 PE-717 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The cars on OMR have 3-2 commuter seating so the > seats would have to be replaced anyway. Who knows > what problems these cars have that would have to > be addressed mechanically, structurally, or > electrically before they would be useable. Maybe > Amtrak could have done something with the Caltrans > cars of which were in service and several dozen > strong but those are headed to Peru. Gut them, inspect and rebuild. You would have an increase in the fleet a whole lot sooner and with less expense instead of waiting years for new cars. Capacity is critical for the survival of intercity passenger trains. Date: 02/03/25 09:52 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ironmtn Not replace, but supplement. And not just Michigan, but all of the Amtrak Midwest coalition states - Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin and Missouri. Additional cars for holiday and weekend traffic and special trains, such as the Tulip Time specials Amtrak once operated to Holland , Mich. for the annual Tulip Time festival in early May. The Illinois State Fair at Springfield or Missouri State Fair at Sedalia. Or for football specials to University of Michigan games at Ann Arbor or Michigan State games at Lansing. Or Illinois games at Champaign-Urbana.
But much, much more importantly, to simply have a general-use reserve fleet. That is very, very badly needed by Amtrak overall. Lack of equipment systemwide has resulted in rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul actions all over the system to deal with either unplanned events like accidents or bad weather, or planned events, such as starting a new service like the Borealis. The need to do that is one of Amtrak's biggest single operating problems, and it has as we've discussed here on TO affected service reliability many times. Cars for use to maintain service when the regular Ventures have to go out of service for maintenance and repairs. Cars to maintain service when there is an unfortunate wreck, and cars are damaged and have to be taken out of service for repairs or rebuilding (how long have we had to wait for LD train services to be reinstituted because of wreck-damaged Superliners needing repair at Beech Grove?). Cars for use to start a new service like the Borealis. Or to add an additional frequency in a service lane, like a fourth Chicago - Detroit frequency on the Michigan Line. These are all things we have discussed time and again, with a lot of agreement here on TO as to their desirability. Even as we admitted they would be tough to do - because of the lack of equipment. Maybe the condition of the cars is too rough and they are too far past their prime for a cost-effective rebuild or refresh. They are similar to Amtrak's Horizon cars. Amtrak under Graham Claytor is said to have settled on the Bombardier design for MBTA as a base for the Horizons because they could be quickly produced without a lot of design development time when Amtrak really needed more equipment ASAP. And as such they are not the best choice. The weaknesses of the design are well known by Amtrak (such as toilets and water systems that seem to freeze up more easily than with other cars). But these kinds of things can be mitigated and reworked during a refresh or rebuild. Oh yes, motive power What will pull them for additional trains? Nope, we can't wait for another new design like the Chargers from Siemens or whomever. So again, go into the secondary market. Buy some used power and shop it. If its amenable to having HEP installed onboard, then do it. Otherwise go the power car route (hey, those are additional axles work for axle count requirements, not an insignificant matter right now). Metra is having good success with its rebuilt SD70-MACH motors. Yes, six-axle power isn't the best choice, and speeds will likely need to be reduced. That's a cost to customer service in one way in extended schedules and later trains if a substitute for faster equipment. But more importantly, the service is maintained. A slower and maybe late train is far better than a full cancellation of service, and the cost of and inconvenience and passenger perception of a bus bridge is avoided. And you actually can explain to people - sorry, we have to operate more slowly with this substitute equipment, but we are maintaining the service for you instead of completely cancelling. No, that's not easy or fun to do, but guess what? People generally will understand as they do 95% of the time when you try and you show you are committed to serving them. Bottom line: it's having the equipment that's important. Period. Hard stop. If you don't have the cars, you can't move forward and provide better service that wins and keeps customers and earns their business - and revenue for you. Yes, you won't have problems to solve and hard work to do to make this equipment work out reasonably well (oh boo-hoo - do you job, dammit). But you also won't have the opportunity either to do more for your customers, serve them better, keep faith with their transportation needs, and do what a railroad is supposed to do. Serve its customers well. Imagine that. MC Date: 02/03/25 10:31 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: joemvcnj Horizon cars were built in the late 1980's and some have corrosion issues.
These cars were built by Pullman-Standard and are 10 years older. I think they can be nothing more than axle count cars except on the Carbondale trains. Similar cars from NJT, called Comet-I's, were built 1970-72, but UTA gave up on them as they could not get parts. Date: 02/03/25 11:08 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ts1457 joemvcnj Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > Horizon cars were built in the late 1980's and > some have corrosion issues. > > These cars were built by Pullman-Standard and are > 10 years older. I think they can be nothing more > than axle count cars except on the Carbondale > trains. > > Similar cars from NJT, called Comet-I's, were > built 1970-72, but UTA gave up on them as they > could not get parts. You probably are right. They will likely go for scrap value. Unless they are visibly shot by an external inspection, buy them and strip one down for a better evaluation. I still think it might be worth a gamble that they could be a relatively inexpensive and quick way to get additional capacity. Date: 02/03/25 11:18 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ironmtn Okay, they may be too worn, and no good, fair enough. Thanks for the information. But the points a number of us are making remain. Namely, the equipment situation is way too tight, and building a reserve fleet should be an important goal for Amtrak and various state partner agencies and coalitions. If these cars are not appropriate for such use, okay, unfortunately. But accept the principle, make it a goal, and work to achieve it.
Maybe Amtrak and its partners don't have to wait for tired, worn-out equipment that would not be practical or cost effective to rebuild. Why not think pro-actively and look to building a secondary fleet another way. Work a deal with an appropriate agency for early retirement of some of their cars that could potentially be useful to Amtrak for rebuilds as secondary fleet so that the entity can get their new cars to meet their needs sooner. A win - win: the agency gets some cash towards their new and improved equipment, and Amtrak gets cars with some good life left in them for rebuild / refresh for a secondary backup fleet, at a reasonable cost. One would think that DOT and Congress would find that to be an efficient and cost-effective process, and be disposed to funding it. Just like parents of young tykes hand off perfectly fine and serviceable clothes and toys from their young ones to other young families for their own kids. The need for a reserve fleet is so overwhelmingly evident. Somebody needs to start doing some fresh serious thinking outside the box to make it happen. Some of us here are trying, but Amtrak and its partners and DOT need to do so too. Otherwise the rob-Peter-to-pay-Paul equipment game is just going to go on forever, and help nobody. MC Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/25 11:19 by ironmtn. Date: 02/03/25 11:39 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: mvrr10 These cars were built by P-S for the MBTA between Oct.1978 and April 1981 and ordered while Dave Gunn ran the MBTA Commuter Rail ; 45 coaches {300-344} and 15 cab cars {1300-1314}. The cab cars became 245-258 when the P-S cars were rebuilt at Hornell,NY in the mid 1990s, the coaches became 200-244 . The 1990s rebuild saw the end doors changed to bi-parting ones and the 2+2 seats changed to the present 3+2 style ; the cab cars lost their restroom,cab equipment and had the end cab windows plated over. Perhaps these cars could be added to the 10 Horizon coaches that were sent for rebuilding that departed Beech Grove with their side doors and traps tagged out in January ??
Date: 02/03/25 11:54 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ST214 The interior door change was to improve access for wheelchairs, but was not well recieved and the doors wore out quick and most no longer retract. Other than that, there are not many differences between these cars and the Horizons.
Perhaps a better fit would be the 300/600 series cars. They were built right before the Horizons were built. They may not be a option though, as they will be the last single level cars running on the MBTA. Amtrak could however scoop up some 1600's, there's plenty of them stored and they could even use the control cabs to put the cabbages out to pasture. They better act fast on those though, they have been moving them to Everett for scrap in pairs. Date: 02/03/25 12:01 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: mvrr10 The MBTA cars for sale at OMR are stored at Davisville/Quonset Point RI on property served by Seaview Transportation Company and would be interchanged with the Providence & Worcester Railroad Company for forewarding at Worcester to CSX either east/west/north ; if routed NS probably to Gardner via the P&W for B&E westward to NS points. Don'recall MBTA or Amtrak complaining about corrosion on the aluminum carcodies...
Date: 02/03/25 12:47 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: PHall mvrr10 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The MBTA cars for sale at OMR are stored at > Davisville/Quonset Point RI on property served by > Seaview Transportation Company and would be > interchanged with the Providence & Worcester > Railroad Company for forewarding at Worcester to > CSX either east/west/north ; if routed NS probably > to Gardner via the P&W for B&E westward to NS > points. Don'recall MBTA or Amtrak complaining > about corrosion on the aluminum carcodies... What does the underframe look like? Is it steel or aluminium? Date: 02/03/25 12:50 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: joemvcnj mvrr10 Wrote:
------------------------------------------------------- > The MBTA cars for sale at OMR are stored at > Davisville/Quonset Point RI on property served by > Seaview Transportation Company and would be > interchanged with the Providence & Worcester > Railroad Company for forewarding at Worcester to > CSX either east/west/north ; if routed NS probably > to Gardner via the P&W for B&E westward to NS > points. Don'recall MBTA or Amtrak complaining > about corrosion on the aluminum carcodies... I have. Amtrak has complained about it for years about aluminum white dust collecting in places you can't see behind panels. They just sent a few back from Maine to Beech Grove because the vestibule floors were rotting out. The contemporary NJT Comet-II cars have rust starting at the bottom of the collision posts. Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/03/25 12:51 by joemvcnj. Date: 02/03/25 15:11 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: ironmtn Well, once again there's practical evidence that cars may not be suitable as hand-me-downs to Amtrak. So be it, unfortunately. I have to say I'm surprised in one way that a poor design like that existed, but in another way that I'm not. Aluminum body cars have historically had issues. Great material for some applications like aircraft. Not so great for passenger cars.
But again, the point remains that Amtrak and state and regional partners have to do some serious thinking about equipment supply, and having more of a reserve fleet. It's too bad that some of the cars being discussed are not suitable for such a purpose. But some plan needs to be developed to mitigate the very tight equipment situation that Amtrak faces, and that is so impinging on service reliability. MC Date: 02/03/25 16:04 Re: MBTA Coaches for Sale - Hello Amtrak Midwest! Author: dan just throw them in service after quick inspections and minimum work, just like the ex-SP back up fleet in the seventies
worried about corrosion , give them the ice pick test? Amtrak is in crisis have other shops do the work. |