Passenger Trains > NY Transit Cops Don't Care About the Law?

NOTE: this is a reposted message from another discussion group:

Harry Beck posted the following on SubTalk:
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Tonight [May 24, 2004] around 8:40PM I went to Stillwell Ave. with subtalker Mark W. to briefly photograph the new station. Immediately after entering fare control two plainclothes NYPD officers surrounded me (I was the only one taking photos). One officer flashed his badge and told me there is no photography allowed. I responded firmly and politely saying that I am aware of the rules and regulations which clearly do not prohibit photography. I elaborated saying I was not:

a) impeding passenger foot traffic

b) using a tripod

c) using a flash.

I explained that all of the aforementioned instances are in violation of the NYCTA photography policy while what I was doing was most certainly NOT.

The police officer then asked for identification and I complied, producing my New York State drivers license and explaining I have lived in Brooklyn my whole life and am using the photos solely for personal use.

Long story short, the police officer then said "I don't care about the law (referring to my explanation of it). I'm telling you NO PICTURES." He finished his 'discussion' with me stating: "if you're not gone in 10 minutes you are going to have a big problem."

I do hope he got his badge number and name, and wrote him up for brutality.

If he had been arrested the officer would have been the one with the "big problem". Taking pictures is not against the law. I also hope that he submits a complaint. We certainly don't need any "bigshot" cops who run over the law.

Unfortunately, getting arrested should not be taken lightly. Most job applications ask that question. It doesn't matter if you were right. I think a lot of poison letters to the NY-MTA, The Mayor, the Police Commish, the Governor with lots of cc's are in order, with threats to not patronize the system, nor take dicretionary trips to the city, etc, and to lobby Washington not to send NY any more money.

With a statement like "I don't care about the law", you have to wonder how many people this guy has arrested in his career who have spent time in the slammer (or are there now), who either need to be released and/or have their records expunged. And, simply "flashing" a badge doesn't cut it. A proper photo ID must accompany the badge. and shown in a manner that allows a subject to see it long enough to verify the person is indeed a law enforcement officer. I got a royal ass chewing from a tough sergeant early in my career for not doing exactly that during a rape investigation. There are a few exceptions but, judging from the description of the incident, it doesn't appear this was a "heat of battle" encounter. The security issue is not going to threaten railfanning. It's the unnecessary overzealous enforcement by wannabe Wyatt Earps that's going to make things tough. The New York City Mayor said it perfectly: "C'mon, get real".

If the perverts can hide cameras on their shoes or up their sleves then Railfans can put cameras in their hats and click away all day and the cops will be too busy night-sticking someone with a real camera!

No Justice, No Peace!

I believe they ask if you have ever been CONVICTED of a crime....most likely a felony, but some are asking about gross misdemeanors. You really can't hide these days, hiring managers farm out background checks to large agencies, which then check your criminal and civil judgement records, along with your credit. It is all fair game now.


> Unfortunately, getting arrested should not be
> taken lightly. Most job applications ask that
> question. It doesn't matter if you were right.

Great! The obsession about arresting the law abiding continues. Meantime, illegals go around getting drivers licenses, benefits, and my tax dollars while helping to subvert the laws of this country. Is it just me or am I missing something?

Transit operators are clearly clueless on how to harden their systems form terrorism, and are alienating watchdog railfans onto the highways. This makes it a very hard to make a case for increased rail security funding if all that results is KGB-like behavior.

So far this ban on photography seems to be all bark, no bite.

Strategically, this seems to be a clever tactic. If you want picture-taking to stop, harass and threaten everyone seen taking pictures. Sooner or later folks are going to get the message.

And, if you never actually arrest someone, you don't have to worry about being accused of over-extending the law. In other words, no paper trail -- no proof of any actual violation.

Sadly, someone will need to be arrested and/or cited before any real objection can be made. Not that I'm volunteering...no, thank you.

Nickatnight

I say that guy should've gotten the cop's ID number and all that and reported it, I'm sorry, but if a wannabe cop wants to harrass someone, me included, for doing things innnocently like that, there's gonna ba some hell alright. That cop had no right harrassing that guy like that!

First, I would not be taking photos about any rail facility nowadays (haven't done so myself in twenty years), but if somehow I were, the only thing i would have doen if challenged were to say, "I'm sorry" stowed the camera and promptly moved on.

This is not time in the history of our Republic to be testing "Civil Liberties".

Just deal with it!!!

O Tempora O Mores

-----Cicero

GBNorman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> First, I would not be taking photos about any rail
> facility nowadays (haven't done so myself in
> twenty years), but if somehow I were, the only
> thing i would have doen if challenged were to say,
> "I'm sorry" stowed the camera and promptly moved
> on.
>
> This is not time in the history of our Republic to
> be testing "Civil Liberties".
>
> Just deal with it!!!
>
> O Tempora O Mores
>
> -----Cicero


"...deal with it" by not giving in to a bunch of fascists now in power in our great country. We need regime change here; soon. The founding fathers are rolling over in their graves.

stash Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> GBNorman Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > First, I would not be taking photos about any
> rail
> > facility nowadays (haven't done so myself in
> > twenty years), but if somehow I were, the
> only
> > thing i would have doen if challenged were to
> say,
> > "I'm sorry" stowed the camera and promptly
> moved
> > on.
> >
> > This is not time in the history of our
> Republic to
> > be testing "Civil Liberties".
> >
> > Just deal with it!!!
> >
> > O Tempora O Mores
> >
> > -----Cicero
>
>
> "...deal with it" by not giving in to a bunch of
> fascists now in power in our great country. We
> need regime change here; soon. The founding
> fathers are rolling over in their graves.
>

If the city has a ban on smoking in all bars, and you are sitting there in a bar on the first floor of a 20 story building smoking with the bar owners permission, and 10 stories above you a office is on fire, and the cop comes in there and tells you to put out the cigarette and get the hell out, are you going to sit there are aurge with him that you have a right to smoke?

"This is not time in the history of our Republic to be testing 'Civil Liberties'."
=============================

This is just like all those other wimpy "In This Day And Age" comments. Just like in 1933, how "in this day and age the Jews were harmful to Germany."

===================================

"If the city has a ban on smoking in all bars, and you are sitting there in a bar on the first floor of a 20 story building smoking with the bar owners permission, and 10 stories above you a office is on fire, and the cop comes in there and tells you to put out the cigarette and get the hell out, are you going to sit there are argue with him that you have a right to smoke?"

===================================

If the city has a ban on smoking in all bars, there would be a law saying so. There is no law making it unlawful to take photographs of subway trains and facilities. Until there is, the officer should be doing the equivalent of getting the people out of the offices on fire ten stories up.

The parallel here would be "If the city has a ban on smoking in all bars, and you are standing outside smoking and LOOKING at the bar..."

jst3751 Wrote:
> If the city has a ban on smoking in all bars, and
> you are sitting there in a bar on the first floor
> of a 20 story building smoking with the bar owners
> permission, and 10 stories above you a office is
> on fire, and the cop comes in there and tells you
> to put out the cigarette and get the hell out, are
> you going to sit there are aurge with him that you
> have a right to smoke?
>
>


Okay, this analogy is so obtuse one would need a crypto key to find any meaning in it. Yes, today we should stop taking pictures of buildings in full view. Tomorrow we should stop smoking in our homes because the government tells us so(note, I am not a smoker), and the next day when there are full blown checkpoints into and out of major metro areas we should just subject ourselves to them nevermind the Constitution....we are in trouble. I guess Ben Franklins' saying about security is pretty much pointless now since no one seems to care how much liberty we loose.

really thats clear abuse of the law right there. Where i go fanning to pull my security all nighters, ive had some blonde broad harass me twice just for trainwatching. she told me this morning that she called the cops and let them know i was there. well heres what i can tell ya, the cops know who i am, they know im a trainwatcher, and they know im out there lookin for stuff that out of the ordinary. it is what i do and im being harassed by this B---h for just enjoying my hobby and getting respect from the crews of amtrak and NS. im gonna file a police report against her. she harasses me again ill be pressing charges and sueing the city and the transit system.
railfan1 out

Interesting perspective.

http://www.nycsubway.org/

>
> This is not time in the history of our Republic to
> be testing "Civil Liberties".
>
This is exactly the time to defend our civil liberties. If we do not defend them now we won't be able to defend them later - They won't exist so it won't matter. If we cannot defend freedom in a time of paranoid panic we are doomed and it doesn't matter. The terrorists, and more so the morons will have won. We can reset the clocks to 1984 and live fat dumb and happy in our pens.

Many cops love to be able to wield power over people. The intimidation factor is a rush and a few cops would harrasss the smoker in a burning building for the sport. That is why people should speak up and push back when harrassed. It is the only way to insure we remain a free society.

Let's see. Murders, robberies and rapes all happen on the New York MTA. So now, we are going to fully focus on the guy with the camera while some guy on the train behind him gets stabbed to death for a twenty dollar bill???? BS! STAND UP for YOUR RIGHTS BEFORE YOU LOSE THEM!!!!!!