Passenger Trains > Caltrain ride

After spending today in San Francisco we had an unusual ride home on Caltrain #268 which left The City on time at 4:37 PM.

#268 is a semi-express which skips eight stops along the way. It operated with engine 626 or 628 and five cars. Everything went fine until Millbrae where we stopped at the station for seven or eight minutes. The conductor announced on the PA system that the extra time was "due to reasons beyond our control". Then at Hayward Park the engineer overran the stop by two train lenghts. We had to back up to the platform in order to detrain passengers. There was another long stop at California Avenue before we continued south. We stepped off in Sunnyvale.

At one time I commuted daily on the commutes when operated by SP and I have riden Caltrain many times. This was the first time I have been on the train when it had to back up because we over ran a stop.

SPB Gerry

Tsk tsk tsk Frankie Boy, can't be day-dreaming about your chopper man! :-p

I was on Caltrain 270, right behind you (you had the engine 928, by the way). The problem at Millbrae was due to a belligerent passenger who had to be removed by the police. That always causes a delay of several minutes. The engineer, in an attempt to make up a little bit of lost time (I was on his color all the way from San Bruno, and the Baby Bullet would soon be catching my color), came into Hayward Park a little too hot. It's not as uncommon as you might think. But two train-lengths? Are you sure you don't mean car-lengths?

At California Avenue another belligerent passenger without a valid ticket started some problems with the conductor. To top things off, when I finally got into Lawrence, the Digicon didn't show me clearing CP Hendy and routed the Baby Bullet into main track 3 right on top of me. The engineer on that train stopped short of CP Hendy so San Jose Control could take the signal down and set it up again properly. That was good for another 5 minute delay.

SPB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After spending today in San Francisco we had an
> unusual ride home on Caltrain #268 which left The
> City on time at 4:37 PM.
>
> #268 is a semi-express which skips eight stops
> along the way. It operated with engine 626 or 628
> and five cars. Everything went fine until
> Millbrae where we stopped at the station for seven
> or eight minutes. The conductor announced on the
> PA system that the extra time was "due to reasons
> beyond our control". Then at Hayward Park the
> engineer overran the stop by two train lenghts.
> We had to back up to the platform in order to
> detrain passengers. There was another long stop
> at California Avenue before we continued south.
> We stepped off in Sunnyvale.
>
> At one time I commuted daily on the commutes when
> operated by SP and I have riden Caltrain many
> times. This was the first time I have been on the
> train when it had to back up because we over ran a
> stop.
>
> SPB Gerry

fjc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> See, there ya go addressing blame and I wasn't
> even working today :-)
>

So was the belligerent passenger actually Frank riding the rails on his days off?

Caltrain-Engr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Millbrae was due to a belligerent passenger who
> had to be removed by the police.

I am surprised that they did not just come all the way down to Menlo Park. Seems like we must get more than our fare share here in Menlo. Today some guy tried to snatch a ladies purse on one of the trains and he hopped off in Menlo and fled on foot.

silagi Wrote:
> So was the belligerent passenger actually Frank
> riding the rails on his days off?


Just saw on the evening news that there was a scuffle between the bicyclists and an Amtrak employee who was on his day off. They had to restrain the employee from wringing their necks since the bicyclists laughed at how there was no more room for a chopper to be brought into the bike storage area.

Tsk tsk tsk

Thanks for the info on #238. At Hayward Park we were well beyond the platform, not just a couple of car lengths.

SPB Gerry

Rode a Surfliner Anaheim to Solana Beach about four years ago and he overshot both stations badly enough so as to have to reverse. It was the only time in all my riding I can remember being on a train that overshot - quite a coincidence to have it happen at both origin and destination.

Dave

F40PHR231 Wrote:
> Just saw on the evening news that there was a
> scuffle between the bicyclists and an Amtrak
> employee who was on his day off. They had to
> restrain the employee from wringing their necks
> since the bicyclists laughed at how there was no
> more room for a chopper to be brought into the
> bike storage area.


LOL! Funny how we all love to make fun of Frankie Boy!

"SPB":

I was also on that train, which is not my usual train (I ride the 5:07 out of SF). Was in Sacramento for a meeting, and managed to make the 4:37. :)

I was wondering why we spent so much time at Millbrae - I think it was 10 minutes, so I asked the crew, and was told "an unruly passenger". The conductor got on the PA system and apologized for the delay - he said it was an unruly passenger. I think I saw the passenger on the platform in Millbrae, talking to a policeman. I really, really hope this was *not* because of that cruel, unnecessary Proof of Payment system. Heck, as long as Caltrain is still going to have 2 conductors per train, they really *should* sell tickets on board. Chicago's Metra still does! A truly *user-friendly* system would *never* use Proof of Payment. Never!

At Hayward Park, I noticed that we stopped - with a noticeable jerk - and then BACKED UP - around one train-length. !! I later learned that our engineer was relatively iinexperienced. I really felt for the guy - railroading is not a job for anyone who wants to be able to make mistakes - and we all do! - without said mistakes being instantly obvious to the public.

Question to "fjc" or "Caltrain-Engnr": Isn't an engineer required to get permission from the dispatcher/control operator before making a reverse move? (Such as the one the 4:37's hoghead made on Thursday.) With the 4:47 and a baby "bullet" breathing down our neck, I would hope so!

(By the way, I know trains by the *time* they leave, not by their numbers - I am a commuter first!)

Because of that incident, I remembered another time when a commute train overshot a platform. This was around 13 years ago, when the SP was still in existence, and was still supplying the crews to operate Caltrain. My train, the 5:18 am out of Atherton, ran most of the way past the platform and we had to walk up to the train, as getting permission to make a reverse move would have delayed us much more than waiting for the passengers to walk a short distance to the doors. That train overshot the platform because the engineer was not familiar with the line. That was the time when the SP was short of engineers for the commutes, and guys were transferred here from all over the SP - and they simply were not familiar enough with this line to memorize where all the stations were. A lighted area does not necessarily mean there is a station there - they had to memorize *which* lighted areas had stations. !! The Peninsula has been wall-to-wall cities for quite some time now.

At least no one got hurt because of these problems. :)

Margaret (SP fan)

P.S. SPB: where were you riding? I was at the south end of Car #2 (I think).

SPB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> After spending today in San Francisco we had an
> unusual ride home on Caltrain #268 which left The
> City on time at 4:37 PM.
>
> #268 is a semi-express which skips eight stops
> along the way. It operated with engine 626 or 628
> and five cars. Everything went fine until
> Millbrae where we stopped at the station for seven
> or eight minutes. The conductor announced on the
> PA system that the extra time was "due to reasons
> beyond our control". Then at Hayward Park the
> engineer overran the stop by two train lenghts.
> We had to back up to the platform in order to
> detrain passengers. There was another long stop
> at California Avenue before we continued south.
> We stepped off in Sunnyvale.
>
> At one time I commuted daily on the commutes when
> operated by SP and I have riden Caltrain many
> times. This was the first time I have been on the
> train when it had to back up because we over ran a
> stop.
>
> SPB Gerry

MargaretSPfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Question to "fjc" or "Caltrain-Engnr": Isn't an
> engineer required to get permission from the
> dispatcher/control operator before making a
> reverse move? (Such as the one the 4:37's hoghead
> made on Thursday.) With the 4:47 and a baby
> "bullet" breathing down our neck, I would hope
> so!

A train can make a reverse movement (at restricted speed of course) any time, as long as you stay in the same block. You are not allowed to move opposite the direction authorized past a signal without authorization from the train dispatcher. But as long as you stay within your block, you are protected by the signal behind you and you can go back and forth all day long. In this example, a following train (me, on Caltrain 270) would encounter a stop & proceed signal (requiring me to stop and then proceed at restricted speed) at the entrance to the occupied block. Both trains would be operating at restricted speed, which requires us to be able to stop within half the range of vision of several things, not the least of which is another train.

The engineer on Caltrain 268 may be less experienced than some, but he's actually a pretty good hoghead, and he definitely knows his rules. We all have our bad days though. I once accidentally expressed through Bayshore. By the time I realized my mistake, I was already at the platform. We got stopped inside tunnel 4, and in that case we had to get authority for a reverse movement, as we needed to pass a signal to get back into the station. A very embarassing moment, to say the least. I had a whole omelette on my face.

Thanks, Caltrain-Engr!

I had thought that some rule like that would be in effect.

Hey Margaret, where do you get your information about the engineer being in-experienced? The crew didn't tell you, I know that for a fact, listening to some know-it-all passenger(s)? Or, are you drawing your own conclusions?

Inquiring minds want to know!


MargaretSPfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> At Hayward Park, I noticed that we stopped - with
> a noticeable jerk - and then BACKED UP - around
> one train-length. !! I later learned that our
> engineer was relatively iinexperienced. I really
> felt for the guy - railroading is not a job for
> anyone who wants to be able to make mistakes - and
> we all do! - without said mistakes being instantly
> obvious to the public.
>

I thought that someone said the engineer was not one who had a lot of experience. Yes, these things can happen to anyone, but . . .wouldn't a more-experienced engineer be a bit less apt to overshoot a station stop than a less-experienced engineer? Of course.

Stating a fact - such as how much experience any particular engineer may have - is NOT meant as a put-down It is just a way of trying to understand why such a thing could happen. Of course people who are more experienced at any particular job are much less apt to make mistakes. Note I said "much less apt to", not "will never". I have a lot of sympathy for commute-line hogheads, for they rarely are people who have a lot of experience hogging freights, and must, perforce, learn on the job.

I have been saying lately that if you want to have a job where very few people will ever notice your mistakes, you should never be a locomotive engineer or a conductor. !! Those people have a very hard job. I myself like my office job, even though it pays too little - my mistakes - and I make 'em! - are totally invisible to the public. :)

This incident and the one I referred to (that happened because an experienced SP hoghead did not know the line) were the ONLY times tbis has happened when I was riding the Peninsula commute system. I hope this continutes to be the case. So far, so good. :)

And - how do you know what the crew may or may not have have said to me?

An inquiring mind wants to know.

Margaret (SP fan)

fjc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Margaret, where do you get your information
> about the engineer being in-experienced? The crew
> didn't tell you, I know that for a fact, listening
> to some know-it-all passenger(s)? Or, are you
> drawing your own conclusions?
>
> Inquiring minds want to know!
>
>
> MargaretSPfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----






>
> >
> > At Hayward Park, I noticed that we stopped -
> with
> > a noticeable jerk - and then BACKED UP -
> around
> > one train-length. !! I later learned that
> our
> > engineer was relatively iinexperienced. I
> really
> > felt for the guy - railroading is not a job
> for
> > anyone who wants to be able to make mistakes
> - and
> > we all do! - without said mistakes being
> instantly
> > obvious to the public.
> >
>

Hate to say it, but even the guys with the most experience overshoot every now and then. Lots of variables, equipment, track conditions, profile, passenger loadings, etc. Things may be going perfectly well at one stop, or two and the next stop the train may not perform as well as the previous stops. The amount of people on the train also affects the braking, as the train gets heavier, it takes longer to stop, a bit longer to get started and the braking distances can increase a bit. Speed also is a factor, also too, some engineers are a bit more agressive than others and sometimes that can get a person in trouble, again no matter how much experience one has. Though the experienced hog head knows how to get himself out of trouble, he can recognize when things are going down hill faster. Though with the level of training we get, one of the first things we are taught is to concentrate on stopping at the stations and getting the air spots down. Then we are taught once we get stopping the train at the stations down, to smooth out the ride and work on the train handling aspects. Then when you work with each different engineer, he or she has their own way of handling the train you must conform to. You take what you've learned from every engineer, and then develop your own style of running, what works for some always doesn't work for everyone else and visa-versa. We have alot of engineers who have worked freight in the past times on the SP of course, we have some who are recerts from other RR's who have worked freight and then the new hire group who have never run freight who have come up thru the ranks of Amtrak. Though with all the work trains we have run in the past, alot of us, especially the newer groups of engineers got the chance to run these trains off the extra board. It was a chance to handle freight equipment and try out different braking techinques which are much different than running a passenger train, don't think for a minute that some of us who strictly run commute trains can't run a freight train because you'd be sadly mistaken.

And as far as what a crew member says to anyone, I can easily find that out by asking, remember I work with these people at different times off the extra board, so I pretty much know everyone and we know and discuss what goes on out there. I think it was inappropriate to include details such as train number, time and date with the original post created by SPB, generalizing would have been much better. Not to say the crew had anything to hide, because they made the incident known to a manager, though there are some with the JPB and Amtrak who read this forum. Who, have nothing else better to do but make a big deal out of something they read on the internet and some crews aren't as forthcoming as others when it involves details on the RR, that's typical anywhere you go. All too often the "foamer" community thinks they are doing some great deed to mankind by posting what they see or experience on the internet when it involves something operationally that a crew did, and alot of times nothing but bad comes from this.



MargaretSPfan Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I thought that someone said the engineer was not
> one who had a lot of experience. Yes, these
> things can happen to anyone, but . . .wouldn't a
> more-experienced engineer be a bit less apt to
> overshoot a station stop than a less-experienced
> engineer? Of course.
>
> Stating a fact - such as how much experience any
> particular engineer may have - is NOT meant as a
> put-down It is just a way of trying to understand
> why such a thing could happen. Of course people
> who are more experienced at any particular job are
> much less apt to make mistakes. Note I said "much
> less apt to", not "will never". I have a lot of
> sympathy for commute-line hogheads, for they
> rarely are people who have a lot of experience
> hogging freights, and must, perforce, learn on the
> job.
>

>
> And - how do you know what the crew may or may not
> have have said to me?
>
> An inquiring mind wants to know.
>
> Margaret (SP fan)
>

Thanks Frank!

An absolutely fascinating explanation of why things do not always go the way thye should. As I sais, I have a LOT of respect for you engineers. NOT an easy job!

It is a sad thing - very sad - that some JPB staffers apparently have nothing better to do than to jump all over a crew for a mistake. I am someone who believes that mercy should be shown - simply find out what went wrong, and then try to find a way to make that mistake less apt to happen in the future. Englightened, caring managers do this.

Doesn't it seem as though the equipment almost has a personality? I have asked crews about that, because I had thought that all cars would handle the same - but they do not. Every train handles differently - and you engineers do not have the usual 10 cars minimum for easy braking. Takes a LOT of skill to handle these 4- and 5-car trains smoothly! My hat is off to all of you.

Now if only they would put the horns back the way they were when the SP was running the system . . . .

Thanks, again, fjc, for your very helpful explanation - of something I really should have figured out for myself.

Margaret (SP fan)



fjc Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hate to say it, but even the guys with the most
> experience overshoot every now and then. Lots of
> variables, equipment, track conditions, profile,
> passenger loadings, etc. Things may be going
> perfectly well at one stop, or two and the next
> stop the train may not perform as well as the
> previous stops. The amount of people on the train
> also affects the braking, as the train gets
> heavier, it takes longer to stop, a bit longer to
> get started and the braking distances can increase
> a bit. Speed also is a factor, also too, some
> engineers are a bit more agressive t


han others and
> sometimes that can get a person in trouble, again
> no matter how much experience one has. Though the
> experienced hog head knows how to get himself out
> of trouble, he can recognize when things are going
> down hill faster. Though with the level of
> training we get, one of the first things we are
> taught is to concentrate on stopping at the
> stations and getting the air spots down. Then we
> are taught once we get stopping the train at the
> stations down, to smooth out the ride and work on
> the train handling aspects. Then when you work
> with each different engineer, he or she has their
> own way of handling the train you must conform to.
> You take what you've learned from every engineer,
> and then develop your own style of running, what
> works for some always doesn't work for everyone
> else and visa-versa. We have alot of engineers
> who have worked freight in the past times on the
> SP of course, we have some who are recerts from
> other RR's who have worked freight and then the
> new hire group who have never run freight who have
> come up thru the ranks of Amtrak. Though with all
> the work trains we have run in the past, alot of
> us, especially the newer groups of engineers got
> the chance to run these trains off the extra
> board. It was a chance to handle freight
> equipment and try out different braking techinques
> which are much different than running a passenger
> train, don't think for a minute that some of us
> who strictly run commute trains can't run a
> freight train because you'd be sadly mistaken.
>
> And as far as what a crew member says to anyone, I
> can easily find that out by asking, remember I
> work with these people at different times off the
> extra board, so I pretty much know everyone and we
> know and discuss what goes on out there. I think
> it was inappropriate to include details such as
> train number, time and date with the original post
> created by SPB, generalizing would have been much
> better. Not to say the crew had anything to hide,
> because they made the incident known to a manager,
> though there are some with the JPB and Amtrak who
> read this forum. Who, have nothing else better to
> do but make a big deal out of something they read
> on the internet and some crews aren't as
> forthcoming as others when it involves details on
> the RR, that's typical anywhere you go. All too
> often the "foamer" community thinks they are doing
> some great deed to mankind by posting what they
> see or experience on the internet when it involves
> something operationally that a crew did, and alot
> of times nothing but bad comes from this.
>
>
>
> MargaretSPfan Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I thought that someone said the engineer was
> not
> > one who had a lot of experience. Yes, these
> > things can happen to anyone, but . .
> .wouldn't a
> > more-experienced engineer be a bit less apt
> to
> > overshoot a station stop than a
> less-experienced
> > engineer? Of course.
> >
> > Stating a fact - such as how much experience
> any
> > particular engineer may have - is NOT meant
> as a
> > put-down It is just a way of trying to
> understand
> > why such a thing could happen. Of course
> people
> > who are more experienced at any particular
> job are
> > much less apt to make mistakes. Note I said
> "much
> > less apt to", not "will never". I have a lot
> of
> > sympathy for commute-line hogheads, for they
> > rarely are people who have a lot of
> experience
> > hogging freights, and must, perforce, learn
> on the
> > job.
> >
>
> >
> > And - how do you know what the crew may or
> may not
> > have have said to me?
> >
> > An inquiring mind wants to know.
> >
> > Margaret (SP fan)
> >
>