International Railroad Discussion > "Chinese Invasion"

Probably not the best we have had, with many problems, but the old saying "You get what you pay's for"
63 in number, built by CRRC Dalian China. Model CKD-9B

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What are the issues with these locomotives so far?

So now that the DLs have nearly a decade of service under them (at least the first two orders) and theoretically the initial bugs worked out, how are they holding up?  What do the crews think of them vs. the older GE and EMD units?

The sure don't seem to be good units for the crew in grade crossing collisions.

jtwlunch Wrote:
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> What are the issues with these locomotives so far?

Had bolts in the pistons back out causing the piston to seperate. One... major issue. 

tomstp Wrote:
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> The sure don't seem to be good units for the crew
> in grade crossing collisions.

Serious grade crossing collisions with large vehicles are not unheard of but are relatively rare outside the US, and traincrew casulaties resulting from them are very, very rare.

Hope they have better luck than Brazilian railroad FCA that bought two units from the same builder. The units were retired after 3 years of service. They have bad mechanics.

Posted from Android

Pedro Rezende
Vespasiano MG,
https://youtube.com/c/minasgeraisrailways1



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/07/20 05:51 by pedrop.

Sorry but would fill this page. They were 1970 technology. One of the main issues was Asbestos, The contract specified none, paint was full of it. They were withdrawn from service to remove it, costing millions.

Of course they're 70's technology. They haven't been able to steal anything newer.

Look at the drawings here, more a '40's layout.
http://www.zacliu.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/ckd9b-layout.jpg

Note the Cardan shaft running forward from the alternator to the 2 auxiliary alternators/generators, via a gearbox, that reverses the direction.

Understand that in China, locomotive design is a monopoly vested in design bureaus attached to some of the prestigious engineering universities, not the plant that assembles the various widgets supplied by the central planning authority in Beijing, into a locomotive. In China the plants that assemble domestic locos are not responsible for the spare parts, spares are ordered from the central planners who then build into their production plans, then allocate back to an OEM. 

To avoid the above bureaucratic circus, some recent buyers of Chinese locos (most sales are government to government so opaque), have contracted the design to a 3rd party contractor (like ABB), so CRRC then becomes a subcontractor, and is not subject to the design bureau monopoly. The Kiwi locos predate this practice, so the design is the work of Party aligned academics, not practical railwaymen. Recent orders from Pakistan to China show Caterpillar as the design authority, South Africa used ABB.

The CRRC diesels (232 ordered) for SA has been an unmitigated disaster, there are reports in their press that the order will be cancelled. 20 were supplied fully built up from China, together with an initial 15 CKD kits for local assembly (2 have been assembled). There is currently a judicial inquiry re the loco order placed in 2014 for 1064 units, split between GE (233), Bombardier (240), and CRRC (591). Evidence presented to the inquiry indicate that CRRC kicked back $US770k in baksheesh per loco, to Indian middlemen associated with Zuma, the deposed President, to win the order. CRRC appear to have substituted domestic alternators and ancillaries, in the locos supplied, in place of the European items specified by ABB.

First photo is a QSK60 powered SDD6, you can clearly see the Cardan shaft.
Second and third shots are of a Kiwi CKD9B
 

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Well the good news is that our next power will be from Progressive Rail or GE, our old U26C's have served us well, and will continue into the future

Utahfannz Wrote:
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> Well the good news is that our next power will be
> from Progressive Rail or GE, our old U26C's have
> served us well, and will continue into the future

How were the MTU power units in those CKDs? Plenty of grunt? They are quite nice looking units, kind of like they're wearing mascara...

Not many Chinese locos have been exported in total... maybe they will have learned from their mistakes, then again, maybe not!

Is Kiwi looking to purchase units soon?



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 01/12/20 00:56 by exhaustED.

exhaustED Wrote:

> Not many Chinese locos have been exported in
> total... maybe they will have learned from their
> mistakes, then again, maybe not!

Did you do any research prior to making this statement?
Do you have any knowledge of third world railways?
Did you have a look at the CRRC website? https://www.crrcgc.cc/g6628.aspx

Just a quick surf and you would have come up with well over 1000 locos.

That is a thousand plus locos that (mainly US) manufacturers missed out on.

Your politicians have effectively blocked US manufacturers selling into the third world via the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977.

Locomotives delivered to South Africa (490 inc CKD kits), Argentina (125+), DRC (42), Nigeria (70+), Pakistan (132), plus the Congo Republic, Sudan, Myanmar, Estonia, Serbia, Kenya, Tanzania, Zambia, Namibia, Angola, Guinea, Saudi Arabia, Thailand, Vietnam, Venezuela, Cuba, Belarus, Ethiopia, Mongolia, Albania, Iran, Iraq, Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Sierra Leone, and others. Over 2000 EMU/DMU export sales in the last decade. CRRC is the worlds largest rollingstock vendor.

4 operators from Australia placed small orders (25 in total) in China to pull GE and EMD into line. The US builders were insisting that their licensees had an exclusive franchise, and refused to sell direct. All it took was 25 Chinese locos to bring both companies to their senses. For a given horsepower, the Chinese were around 50% cheaper than an Australian assembled US licensed unit. EMD bought out their licensee (Downer Rail), and GE came to an arrangement with UGL. Imports from the USA are around $US1 mil per unit cheaper than Australian assembled units.

jmt Wrote:
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> exhaustED Wrote:
>
> > Not many Chinese locos have been exported in
> > total... maybe they will have learned from
> their
> > mistakes, then again, maybe not!
>
> Did you do any research prior to making this
> statement?
> Do you have any knowledge of third world
> railways?
> Did you have a look at the CRRC website?
> https://www.crrcgc.cc/g6628.aspx
>
> Just a quick surf and you would have come up with
> well over 1000 locos.
>

Calm down, dear!
Although I didn't state it explicitly, I was really referring to Chinese exports to 1st world countries i.e. the only locos that sprang to my mind going in that direction were the Kiwi ones.

Re Kiwi Rail Units.
They have plenty of grunt according to crews, I have ridden cab a few times ( son a Locomotive Engineer) I personally were not impressed, having spent my time as LE on  GE and EMD, and Brush Electrics.
They are i believe looking at new power to replace GE's in South Island, and the powers that be who have any brains, want U.S products. But as we have a Free Trade Agreement with China, and some politicians, in our vocabulary, who we call Wankers, anything is possible 

Utahfannz Wrote:
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> Re Kiwi Rail Units.
> They have plenty of grunt according to crews, I
> have ridden cab a few times ( son a Locomotive
> Engineer) I personally were not impressed, having
> spent my time as LE on  GE and EMD, and Brush
> Electrics.
> They are i believe looking at new power to replace
> GE's in South Island, and the powers that be who
> have any brains, want U.S products. But as we have
> a Free Trade Agreement with China, and some
> politicians, in our vocabulary, who we call
> Wankers, anything is possible 

Ha ha, politicians indeed!
Thanks a lot for the info.