Western Railroad Discussion > Facing Point Locks and rule 8.9.3?

You know as I study GCOR 2005 in college sometimes I wonder about a lot of stuff that is not really all that much in use any more but still lives on in the rule books.

For example lets say I got a job working out of roseville, would I ever come to a spring switch with a "Facing Point Lock", as described in rule 8.9.3, or are these a vestage of the old train order days?

A good article on this subject from a few years back, talks a little bit about them, but that was five years ago.

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?1,32780,33012#msg-33012

Also the last poster on this thread, has some really good information about facing point locks, and spring switches from the SP era, but that is about all the information my search of this distinguished forum turned up.

I was sort of hoping for a picture?

Once a rule it will always be a rule.

On the CN(ex-IC) we do not use GCOR. My favorite rule is the rule that says you have to know all the rules. Either way you will always lose in the invesigation if something were to happen ie. accident/mishap ect....

Tim K.

The rules are the same, and written in pencil for the benigit of management. Learn how to play the game, get good at the game and you will have a long and prosperous career. If you dont play the game or try to play the game with different rules your career will be cut short.

It is important to rememeber the rules are there to protect management. You may be involved in a situation, and have performed according to standard operating procedure. But if they want to get someone or make an example; they will find the most obsure, overlooked, and seemingly pointless rule to make their stand on. When you hire out somewhere pay attention to the manager. Notice when they test. Most times they dont even know what they are testing for, they have to look at a rulebook first to see what rules were complied with and which rules were bent or evn broken.

The rules are your friend, the rules are your enemy. they are a living organism much like fire, which can harm or help. You can do much with fire, just be careful not to get burned.

>You know as I study GCOR 2005 in college sometimes I wonder about a lot of stuff that is not really all that much in use any more but still lives on in the rule books.

>For example lets say I got a job working out of roseville, would I ever come to a spring switch with a "Facing Point Lock", as described in rule 8.9.3, or are these a vestage of the old train order days?

Since GCOR is universal to most railroads west of Chicago if the situation exists anyplace then it must be in the rulebook. If the situation becomes so rare that it only occurs a few places on only one railroad or even only one division then it would make sense to remove that rule from the GCOR and handle those rare situations with the railroad's (or division's) own Special Instructions. But getting something OUT of a rulebook is difficult because each and every subdivision of each and every railroad using the rulebook would have to be examined to make certain that situation no longer exists anywhere.

There are no mainline spring switches left on any of the lines I run on account too many derailments. But I presume there must be some someplace??

We used to have several mainline spring switches. None had facing point locks but all had a point indicating semafore signal about 1 mile in advance of the facing point movement.

The latest BNSF System Special Instructions still has a page or two of instructions for the BN's TroughTrain cars, all of which to my knowledge were scrapped a couple of years ago. I am currently trying to get this bit of extra reading deleted from the NEXT System SI but I am not holding my breath.

AAK Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There are no mainline spring switches left on any
> of the lines I run on account too many
> derailments. But I presume there must be some
> someplace??


Albany, Oregon, where the Portland & Western's mainline comes into the UP Brooklyn sub. The spring switch is protected by a short signal circuit on the P&W side and uncontrolled absolute signals for trailing movement over it.

Roustabout out

roustabout Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> AAK Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > There are no mainline spring switches left on
> any
> > of the lines I run on account too many
> > derailments. But I presume there must be
> some
> > someplace??
>
>
> Albany, Oregon, where the Portland & Western's
> mainline comes into the UP Brooklyn sub. The
> spring switch is protected by a short signal
> circuit on the P&W side and uncontrolled
> absolute signals for trailing movement over it.
>
> Roustabout out


Wow, that is the heart of old SP territory, or at least a place I remember as being once SP, but does this wonderous location actually have a facing point lock?

I am starting to get the idea, that even spring switches are a vanishing breed, with the spring swithes with the facing point locks being even more rare?

For example lets say I got on a job in roseville, how many spring switches with facing point locks would I run over before I came to a crew change point running to sparks, portola, bakersfield, dunsmuir or san jose? I am starting to get the sinking feeling that the answer is not very many if any at all?

When I was reading the rules on spring switches equiped with facing point locks the thing that really struck me, what how if the signal was red, the thing to do was to line the switch by hand, and then when the entire train had passed over it, line it back, and walk a mile down the line back the the head end of the train.

Sort of seemed like this was some kind of caboose era rule, where there was a rear end brakeman to line the switch back.

Another thing about this P&W arrangement, that seems strange at my novice level, is the concept of an "Absolute uncontroled signal", because I sort of associate "Absolute signals" more with the controled signals one sees so much in modern CTC, and the number plate equiped stop and proceed signals, with more "automatic block signals".

hobojaks Wrote:

>Another thing about this P&W arrangement, that
> seems strange at my novice level, is the concept
> of an "Absolute uncontroled signal", because I
> sort of associate "Absolute signals" more with the
> controled signals one sees so much in modern CTC,
> and the number plate equiped stop and proceed
> signals, with more "automatic block signals".


Not so strange, they are called automatic signals. Automatic interlockings feature them. The ABS/TWC territory on the Spine Line from Mason City, IA to Des Moines IA also uses them. If a conflicting movement passes a signal anywhere south of the next siding for your northbound train, or vice versa, there is an absolute that will go red (along with all the intermediates to the north) at the N. end of the last siding. Trying to type that so it makes sense is tough, hope I didn't butcher it too bad.

hobojaks Wrote:
>
> Another thing about this P&W arrangement, that
> seems strange at my novice level, is the concept
> of an "Absolute uncontroled signal", because I
> sort of associate "Absolute signals" more with the
> controled signals one sees so much in modern CTC,
> and the number plate equiped stop and proceed
> signals, with more "automatic block signals".

hobojaks, here's a little more about that signal. The main line southward direction non-number plated signal at the spring switch equipped south leg of the Albany wye about which roustabout wrote is, when displaying a red aspect, simply a STOP signal (UPRR rule 9.2.15) which happens to be in ABS territory. It is located in a 3 1/2-mile island area between CTC territories where GCOR 6.3 Main Track Authorization is granted by GCOR 6.13 Yard Limits. The method that is most often needed to get by this stop signal is found in GCOR 9.12.4A.3. "Proceed at restricted speed when a crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and obtained permission to pass the Stop indication. However, if the train dispatcher cannot be contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5 minutes, then proceed at restricted speed."

Jim700 Wrote:
>
> hobojaks, here's a little more about that signal.
> The main line southward direction non-number
> plated signal at the spring switch equipped south
> leg of the Albany wye about which roustabout wrote
> is, when displaying a red aspect, simply a STOP
> signal (UPRR rule 9.2.15) which happens to be in
> ABS territory. It is located in a 3 1/2-mile
> island area between CTC territories where GCOR 6.3
> Main Track Authorization is granted by GCOR 6.13
> Yard Limits.

> The method that is most often needed
> to get by this stop signal is found in GCOR
> 9.12.4A.3. "Proceed at restricted speed when a
> crew member has contacted the train dispatcher and
> obtained permission to pass the Stop indication.
> However, if the train dispatcher cannot be
> contacted, move 100 feet past the signal, wait 5
> minutes, then proceed at restricted speed."


That is a really good example. When I read this rule for ABS
territory, it seemed really strange to me at first until I thought
more about it. I had seen it many times before reading your outstanding post,
and comming from a car driver world where stop means stop
it did seem somewhat non-intuitive.

Especially the part about if you can't get in contact with the train dispatcher,
pull onto the track circut to set up the block signals, wait five miniutes and
then just go, at restricted speed.

Hey gotta talk to a class mate so I will type more on this later