Western Railroad Discussion > Speculation Regarding Tennessee Pass

This post may not be quite what you are expecting. It isn't speculation about Tennessee Pass in our universe, but in another, parallel universe.

In this parallel universe, in 1995, BN merged with SP instead of SF, giving the newly created BNSP control of the former Rio Grande. Let's also say, for the sake of argument, UP+SF (which we all know would have resulted in "UP") also happened.

In this scenario, BNSP has the Sunset Route and Hi Line over Marias. No real transcontinental route between the two OTHER than the Moffat and Tennessee Pass.

So, in this universe, what's the likelihood that Tennessee Pass would be open today? And the Moffat too, for that matter. I realize we can never know the answer, I'm just interested in speculation. Seems likely to me it would still be open...

Have a great Labor Day!

Posted from iPhone

Kevin Morgan
Arvada, CO
ColoradoRailfan.com

Moffat would be open with coal off the Craig Branch going east out of Denver on the CB&Q, while North Fork coal would go over Tennessee Pass and south at Pueblo or out the La Junta.

Tennessee Pass is always going to be an expensive route to operate, just by the fact of its grades. Doesn't matter who operates it. If MDO had his way, the SP would have dumped it over the Moffat long before any merger in the mid 90s. Don't think the BN would have kept it open either. Not enough North Branch coal to justify the expense. La Junta still a long slow route to KC like the MOP route



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/11 15:09 by WAF.

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Tennessee Pass is always going to be an expensive
> route to operate, just by the fact of its grades.
> Doesn't matter who operates it. If MDO had his
> way, the SP would have dumped it over the Moffat
> long before any merger in the mid 90s. Don't think
> the BN would have kept it open either. Not enough
> North Branch coal to justify the expense. La Junta
> still a long slow route to KC like the MOP route

All true, but,
How do I get into this thread???

mdo

A 'draft'...
>
> All true, but,
> How do I get into this thread???
>
> mdo

mdo Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> WAF Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Tennessee Pass is always going to be an
> expensive
> > route to operate, just by the fact of its
> grades.
> > Doesn't matter who operates it. If MDO had his
> > way, the SP would have dumped it over the
> Moffat
> > long before any merger in the mid 90s. Don't
> think
> > the BN would have kept it open either. Not
> enough
> > North Branch coal to justify the expense. La
> Junta
> > still a long slow route to KC like the MOP
> route
>
> All true, but,
> How do I get into this thread???
>
> mdo

Good at reading minds, lol

mojaveflyer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A 'draft'...
> >
> > All true, but,
> > How do I get into this thread???
> >
> > mdo
High draft number

In MY alternate reality, the D&RGW brought the WP and the Tennessee Pass line is busier then ever.

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> In MY alternate reality, the D&RGW brought the WP
> and the Tennessee Pass line is busier then ever.
Yup, the might have been, the coulda been. Good match, locomotive-wise.

I realize Tennessee Pass was expensive to operate. Fair enough! I guess my question becomes this: If there was something in San Francisco headed for Kansas City or even Chicago, would it be cheaper to run it north or south (to the other alternatives) rather than over the Grande? (Costs meaning costs of maintaining the lines, etc)?

I do recall hearing Rio Grande tried to find a way to kill the line...

Posted from iPhone

Kevin Morgan
Arvada, CO
ColoradoRailfan.com

Definately cheaper via the Sunset-Golden State Route to KC/CHI



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/05/11 17:20 by WAF.

What about the maybe more possible scenario that during the Rio Grande and Santa Fe battle for the Royal Gorge, the Santa Fe wins. Now Santa Fe owns the Tennessee Pass line. Now just about any scenario involving the Santa Fe potentially keeps Tennessee Pass open.

1. The SPSF merger gets approved. We see a bunch of red and yellow operating on TP.

2. The merger happens as it did (BNSF) and we see former GN colors on the pass, well until the orange/black scheme anyway.

Fun to dream.

Rio Grande Fan
Denver, CO

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > In MY alternate reality, the D&RGW brought the
> WP
> > and the Tennessee Pass line is busier then
> ever.
> Yup, the might have been, the coulda been. Good
> match, locomotive-wise.

The Rio Grande went broke supplying the money to build the WP. It would only be right if they ended up owning the WP.

WAF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Definately cheaper via the Sunset-Golden State
> Route to KC/CHI


Always wondered about that, curious if that because of crews or fuel. I had thought it was because the SP/D&RGW combination did not have a route past Denver. Which was why (as I understood it from trackside) the SP/UP combination had been so strong. But even then they didn't get into Chicago.

Fuel plays a big part. Almost level grade leaving California to KC. (Yes, I know about east of Tucson). Go north or east, you have 2 mountains to cross.

If there was a strong Central Corridor non-coal volume routed via Moffat (and I mean more than in SP-DRGW days), could Moffatt have handled a strong coal volume at the same time?

Capacity issues: ~25 minutes to blow out the Moffat tunnel between trains; and congested junctions, terminals and other capacity weaknesses in Denver; single track Palmer Lake - Kelker shared with BNSF Powder River coal trains to Texas.

So consider this scenario: If there had been very stong coal volume to Texas off the North Fork, from Utah, and off the Craig Branch, ore to Geneva, and strong BNSP auto, manifest and intermodal traffic in the Central Corridor, could Moffat handle it all? Given the consequent delays, perhaps Tennessee Pass would be cheaper route for the Texas coal than a near meltdown on Moffat and the Front Range?

SP did not have too much traffic for Moffat to handle before the UP takeover, so I can understand MDO's point of view, although I suspect the delays in Denver and Palmer Lake - Kelker could have been pretty terrible without capacity improvements, and I think it's risky to try and run that many tonnage trains on an isolated single-track mountain-grade railroad without a back-up route.

It's a moot point now. Excepting coal originating in the area, all the Central Corridor traffic rolls across the UP Overland Route or the BNSF Transcon now.

Yet the TP line is still there. Just in case.

Best regards,

Rob L.

Had the BN and SP combined the Tennessee Pass line would have been operating much like it did during the latter days of the SP which saw lots of traffic going that way. While the line would have saw the loss of some traffic comeing from Oregon heading to California, that would have been traded for a lot more traffic coming off the BN in the Northwest heading for the Gulf Coast. BN's use of the MRL would have probably dropped to minimum levels stated in the contract. Coal would have gone over both passes. Some of the manifest traffic going the ex-MP Pueblo-Herrington would have been shifted to the BN route via Lincoln, but it's hard to say how much could have fit on that route.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

Thanks for the discussion. I guess I was trying to grasp at some reality where an open Tennessee Pass in 2011 might be feasible. :)

Kevin Morgan
Arvada, CO
ColoradoRailfan.com