Western Railroad Discussion > Something different at the Cajon Summit today

Today, I notice a truck waiting for awhile then, place a red flag between the track. A UP Locomotive came down and stop. I have a video on the flag. I can't read the flag..

Javier Ortiz
Dallas, TX

---

---

Looks like a stop test!
Mike

It most definitely is a stop test. The flag reds "stop, obstruction."

Plant the flag and go hide in the weeds.

Test teams and Weed Weasels up to their tricks. They love to conduct banner tests on curves and places that include obstructions to your view. The people in that white company vehicle are drooling for you to run that banner over and fail you; gotta make that quota.

So what's the procedure? Throw the train into emergency to make the stop in time?

emergency shouldn't be necessary if both the crew and the officials are following the rules.

Posted from Android

Have the train under control and come to a normal stop. Putting the train in emergency is last resort and a manager will take exception to it unless the conductor put the train in emergency. I know, I had 40+ years worth of tests, and anything out of the ordinary is a test

I got to ask, can't help myself. Would they stop a train pulling upgrade like this? I assume from your statement, a UP locomotive came down, that the crew had just tipped over the summit and started down. I wouldn't be too happy as an engineer to have to restart on that grade. I know it can be done but still.

Fizzboy7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> So what's the procedure? Throw the train into
> emergency to make the stop in time?

If you have to put the train into emergency, you are already violating the rules. When they put these banners out, the train should already be at a speed that will allow stopping before the flag normally by rules. Managers can't just put a flag out while the train is operating on a favorable signal indication.


Mike_B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got to ask, can't help myself. Would they stop a
> train pulling upgrade like this? I assume from
> your statement, a UP locomotive came down, that
> the crew had just tipped over the summit and
> started down. I wouldn't be too happy as an
> engineer to have to restart on that grade. I know
> it can be done but still.

Sometimes managers don't know the territory they are testing on an place these in very inconvenient locations for train crews. It has happened before where a manager has set up a test, stopped the train and the train was not able to get moving again. While not very common, it does happen.

Mike_B Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I got to ask, can't help myself. Would they stop a
> train pulling upgrade like this? I assume from
> your statement, a UP locomotive came down, that
> the crew had just tipped over the summit and
> started down. I wouldn't be too happy as an
> engineer to have to restart on that grade. I know
> it can be done but still.

Better than a flag test on the downhill side IMHO. If some BNSF official wants to plug up their railroad by conducting efficiency tests on Cajon, on UP trains that may not be able to restart going uphill (very unlikely), that's their prerogative. But if I was in the cab, I'd rather be tested going uphill than down. If for some reason I could not get restarted, bad news for BNSF and good news for my paycheck when I start collecting OT while waiting for help.

How much of a blind curve is this on? If it's in a spot that's impossible to see until the last minute, then I can't see it being a fair test. Those who know the curve, from the rail's perspective, may be able to comment if a downhill train has enough time to see the flag and stop w/o going into emergency.

Would they have set the prior signal to restricting or put some sort of warrant out so the train would approach at restricted speed? Would this sort of test be for restricted speed compliance?

Jim B

jimB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Would they have set the prior signal to
> restricting or put some sort of warrant out so the
> train would approach at restricted speed? Would
> this sort of test be for restricted speed
> compliance?
>
> Jim B

Although I'm just offering a foamer perspective, that might be what happened here. Just down the hill are the signals at Silverwood, which I use often to figure out when a train is coming. For the westbounds coming down from Summit, there are signals there, too.

I guess the rattlesnakes are more active in the winter than I thought!

In this scenario, the previous signal would be set for the train to proceed at restricted speed, able to stop within half the range of vision of any obstruction. GCOR rule 6.27.

The UP did a stop test on their adjacent Mojave Sub between I-15 and Silverwood. The uphill train complied, but then had problems after that that delayed them. It may have been payback for testing them.

mapboy

mapboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It may have been payback for
> testing them.
>
If that was the case, then the crew should be fired. If you think retaliation for be evaluated on your knowledge of the rules is the right action, I sure as heck wouldn't want you for an employee.

Running a train is the real world - and people get evaluated on how they are performing all the time in the real world. Go to a biz meeting with your boss - you don't think he's evaluating you? Player on a football team - the coaches aren't evaluating your performance in the game AND in practice? You don't perform and the general rule is somebody that does can replace you. Why should train crews be any different?

And as info for the non-railroaders out there, these tests are MANDATED by the FRA - they are not just made up by the "rattlesnakes" trying to get somebody fired. So many per year for every operating craft employee. If that "weed weasel" didn't do them, he'd get fired and the railroad would get fined big dollars. So if testing a crew on a grade on Cajon sounds onerous, it's just part of the job. What's funny is that most of the crews know all of the above, and yet some still gripe like they're being persecuted.

Fizzboy7 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> How much of a blind curve is this on? If it's in
> a spot that's impossible to see until the last
> minute, then I can't see it being a fair test.
> Those who know the curve, from the rail's
> perspective, may be able to comment if a downhill
> train has enough time to see the flag and stop w/o
> going into emergency.

Do you think a disabled train knows it's stopping on a blind curve so it continues until it can be well seen? The purpose is to test the crew about knowing the rule and executing the proper procedure. If that was the rear end of a train that had stopped and a train behind ran into it, would that be unfair to the injured or dead crew in the locomotives?

Sorry to sound harsh. But most folks that have worked around the railroad know of at least one incident where "if the worst could happen, it did". Setting up a removable flag on a blind curve is just a way of making sure that a crew is aware that it could happen there just as easily as on a nice long tangent that had miles of visibility.

Railfool03 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Fizzboy7 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > How much of a blind curve is this on? If it's
> in
> > a spot that's impossible to see until the last
> > minute, then I can't see it being a fair test.
>
> > Those who know the curve, from the rail's
> > perspective, may be able to comment if a
> downhill
> > train has enough time to see the flag and stop
> w/o
> > going into emergency.
>
> Do you think a disabled train knows it's stopping
> on a blind curve so it continues until it can be
> well seen? The purpose is to test the crew about
> knowing the rule and executing the proper
> procedure. If that was the rear end of a train
> that had stopped and a train behind ran into it,
> would that be unfair to the injured or dead crew
> in the locomotives?
>
> Sorry to sound harsh. But most folks that have
> worked around the railroad know of at least one
> incident where "if the worst could happen, it
> did". Setting up a removable flag on a blind
> curve is just a way of making sure that a crew is
> aware that it could happen there just as easily as
> on a nice long tangent that had miles of
> visibility.


I was more interested in finding out how blind this turn is and does anyone who runs this line know if it's possible to stop (at the flag) given the prescribed speed? I understand what you are saying about "if the worst could happen, it will." I'm just curious how fair this particular spot is to put a flag in. I do not recall seeing a train slow for this particular curve beyond what the prescribed downhill speed is.

As far as being harsh, most on this board are not railroaders. We are fans of the industry and come on here to ask questions to learn. Thanks for your experiences and sharing your information.

Railfool03 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And as info for the non-railroaders out there,
> these tests are MANDATED by the FRA - they are not
> just made up by the "rattlesnakes" trying to get
> somebody fired. So many per year for every
> operating craft employee. If that "weed weasel"
> didn't do them, he'd get fired and the railroad
> would get fined big dollars. So if testing a crew
> on a grade on Cajon sounds onerous, it's just part
> of the job. What's funny is that most of the
> crews know all of the above, and yet some still
> gripe like they're being persecuted.

Point taken, since I've asked railroaders both current and retired about how it all works. The "watchout for rattlesnake" is a Cajon Pass joke for all who have visited there, but I guess humor must be illegal and against regulations?

I've observed at least 3 flag tests in the past, and one of them as a participant while riding Amtrak #5 between Shed10 and Switch 9. The conductor informed the passenger what was going on, which was nice of him.

The second one was conducted by BNSF management to a northbound manifest at the same time UP 844 was visiting Stockton in 2009. I don't know what the crew felt, but the management stuck around to watch the UP 844 take the diamonds. Hope having fun isn't illegal either.

The third (and several other ones) were conducted by Caltrain at Santa Clara at night. In all cases, the crew passed the test.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/13/13 20:46 by cchan006.