Western Railroad Discussion > Anatomy of the Tehachapi Derailment

The picture below shows the location of the rear-end derailment two days ago. Much has been debated here on TO about the possible/probable cause(s) of the collision. Now that the literal and figurative dust has settled, let me raise a couple of questions:

1. Was the UP manifest stopped or moving?

2. How fast was the BNSF autorack going?

3. Was there any radio communication between the two trains?

I ask these questions because it appears that the collision was at 5mph or less....maybe as little as 1 or 2 mph. It was 2am and dark on the mountain. The BNSF autorack could have been moving very slowly when it rounded the blind curve noted in the picture. Engineer error.....yes probably....he couldn't stop within one half of the sight distance ahead.....which is required under the rules.

---

There has been no discussion yet about whether dispatching may be partly at fault for overpacking the traffic.

And, as heavy as I have seen traffic on the Tehachapi, why is it that the rail technology lags so far behind in such things as the point and tail GPS monitoring of train movements? There are so many ways a rearender like this could easily have been prevented. Somehow just slapping the crew with a 6.27 violation won't get to the bottom of all that is amiss here.

Posted from Android

Fred Harrison
Central Point, OR
CORPpower/JSS/EORS



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 05/22/13 12:02 by fredkharrison.

> ...whether dispatching may be partly at fault
> for overpacking the traffic.

How's he do that?

Question: How do you stop within one half of the sight distance in a situation like I see on this Tehachapi map? If it's dark out and there are blind curves, is it even possible to follow that equation and still be moving? (Seriously--I don't know). Are there ever situations where you CAN'T see within that "half" rule, so instead you just stop and sit?

What about slack action with the autos . . (?)

cinder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The picture below shows the location of the
> rear-end derailment two days ago. Much has been
> debated here on TO about the possible/probable
> cause(s) of the collision. Now that the literal
> and figurative dust has settled, let me raise a
> couple of questions:
>
> 1. Was the UP manifest stopped or moving?
>
> 2. How fast was the BNSF autorack going?
>
> 3. Was there any radio communication between the
> two trains?
>
> I ask these questions because it appears that the
> collision was at 5mph or less....maybe as little
> as 1 or 2 mph. It was 2am and dark on the
> mountain. The BNSF autorack could have been
> moving very slowly when it rounded the blind curve
> noted in the picture. Engineer error.....yes
> probably....he couldn't stop within one half of
> the sight distance ahead.....which is required
> under the rules.


I'm not sure what would make you think it looked like it was a 5mph or less??? You don't put 14 cars on the ground and cross ways across the track on an accident happening at less than 5mph.. From what's been said at work, they were going 21mph, that would faster than the 6.27 rule.. Would they be talking? Probably not, two different railroads..

Posted from iPhone

Yarddogh Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> What about slack action with the autos . . (?)


They're going down hill, slack action wouldn't be an issue, train is already bunched..

Posted from iPhone

If the BNSF train was going 18-21 mph, then the UP train must have been going 12-15 mph.....or the derailment would have been much worse. Note I said the "collision" speed appeared to be very slow.

cinder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The picture below shows the location of the
> rear-end derailment two days ago. Much has been
> debated here on TO about the possible/probable
> cause(s) of the collision. Now that the literal
> and figurative dust has settled, let me raise a
> couple of questions:
>
> 1. Was the UP manifest stopped or moving?
>
> 2. How fast was the BNSF autorack going?
>
> 3. Was there any radio communication between the
> two trains?
>
> I ask these questions because it appears that the
> collision was at 5mph or less....maybe as little
> as 1 or 2 mph. It was 2am and dark on the
> mountain. The BNSF autorack could have been
> moving very slowly when it rounded the blind curve
> noted in the picture. Engineer error.....yes
> probably....he couldn't stop within one half of
> the sight distance ahead.....which is required
> under the rules.


This is what I was told:
1. The UP was stopped. The DPU was shut down because the UP had been stopped for 10" or longer. Once the UP engr gets the DPU started by using the reverser from the head end unit it takes about 10" for the DPU to start up and be ready to move.

2. I am told the BNSF hoghead told the MTM that he was going 10 MPH, which I find difficult to believe from the damage done. BUT, I wasn't there so I don't know.

3 There is communications, by radio, if the need arises. But in this case I don't see the need if everyone is doing their job.

As has been thoroughly discussed here, RESTRICTED speed is basically "stopping within 1/2 the range of vision". If you are coming around a "blind" curve, your speed should be crawling, or less. By that I mean send the Conductor walking around the curve and see if anything is blocking you ahead.




V

SLOCONDR

cinder Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> If the BNSF train was going 18-21 mph, then the UP
> train must have been going 12-15 mph.....or the
> derailment would have been much worse. Note I
> said the "collision" speed appeared to be very
> slow.

My personal experience as a engineer says the derailment was closer to the 10-20 mph range of impact. 4~5 mph would be considered a really hard hit in switching. It'll jostle you around and make a lot of noise, but not likely to derail something, especially if the other train was already moving away. Think about this way, the rear DPU on the UP was in dynamic, meaning the drawbars ahead of it were stretched back. When the BNSF train hit it, there would a lot of slack to take up before the cars would derail. This moves the likely impact speed much more toward 20mph.

Ted Curphey
Ontario, OR

I can't imagine running on rule 6.27 in the dark DOWNHILL on the Tehachapi mountains I think the minimum I would feel safe was a solid yellow?
Andy

I recall a bad wind storm on the east end of the Los Angeles division, it had damaged the pole line and there were red signals. The crews reported the visibility was so bad that half their range of vision was less than a car length and they had to simply stop. The Chief Dispatcher did (could) not argue, the railroad was tied up for about a day. Before traffic could move poles, trees, and sand drifts across the track had to be removed and trains re-crewed.
But there were no collisions.

fredkharrison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> There has been no discussion yet about whether
> dispatching may be partly at fault for overpacking
> the traffic.
>

There is no discussion of yet because it doesn't apply.

There is nothing that says you have to move on a restricting signal. Engineers DO have some discretion. IF it was dark and he was uncomfortable moving he could and should have simply waited at last signal until he got a more favorable signal before proceeding. The crew SHOULD have been aware of what was happening ahead just listening in on the radio. Every engineer with any experience knows auto trains don't brake for crap. There is such a variety of engineers out there it is crazy. Has it really changed that much in only ten year? Is it really that bad out there? Are they under training that much that engineers are afraid of their trains? Unfortunately restricted speed is well defined and the ONLY reason this accident should have occured IMHO SHOULD have been due to equipment malfunction. And, MAYBE this IS the case? Time will tell.
JB

SLOCONDR Wrote:
> As has been thoroughly discussed here, RESTRICTED
> speed is basically "stopping within 1/2 the range
> of vision". If you are coming around a "blind"
> curve, your speed should be crawling, or less. By
> that I mean send the Conductor walking around the
> curve and see if anything is blocking you ahead.
>
Exactly. Wake the conductor up and/Or send him out walking ahead. Once he's walked 20cars then have the engineer start creeping forward. If the grade can't handle that walk further. Might take all night or day but you go home with a job and your boss doesn't have a rerail bill on his desk.

Posted from Android

SLOCONDR Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cinder Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The picture below shows the location of the
> > rear-end derailment two days ago. Much has
> been
> > debated here on TO about the possible/probable
> > cause(s) of the collision. Now that the
> literal
> > and figurative dust has settled, let me raise a
> > couple of questions:
> >
> > 1. Was the UP manifest stopped or moving?
> >
> > 2. How fast was the BNSF autorack going?
> >
> > 3. Was there any radio communication between
> the
> > two trains?
> >
> > I ask these questions because it appears that
> the
> > collision was at 5mph or less....maybe as
> little
> > as 1 or 2 mph. It was 2am and dark on the
> > mountain. The BNSF autorack could have been
> > moving very slowly when it rounded the blind
> curve
> > noted in the picture. Engineer error.....yes
> > probably....he couldn't stop within one half of
> > the sight distance ahead.....which is required
> > under the rules.
>
>
> This is what I was told:
> 1. The UP was stopped. The DPU was shut down
> because the UP had been stopped for 10" or longer.
> Once the UP engr gets the DPU started by using the
> reverser from the head end unit it takes about 10"
> for the DPU to start up and be ready to move.
>
> 2. I am told the BNSF hoghead told the MTM that he
> was going 10 MPH, which I find difficult to
> believe from the damage done. BUT, I wasn't there
> so I don't know.
>
> 3 There is communications, by radio, if the need
> arises. But in this case I don't see the need if
> everyone is doing their job.
>
> As has been thoroughly discussed here, RESTRICTED
> speed is basically "stopping within 1/2 the range
> of vision". If you are coming around a "blind"
> curve, your speed should be crawling, or less. By
> that I mean send the Conductor walking around the
> curve and see if anything is blocking you ahead.
>
>
>
>
> V
>
> SLOCONDR

So y'alls DPU's shut down when stopped for over 10 minutes? Ours never shutdown when set up for DP service. Just curious as to what this has to do with anything? Does y'alls DPU headlights also extinguish when the DPU shuts down maybe making for less visibility?

No, when in DPU the remotes don't shut down!!! The leader doesn't even shut down.. Were did that come from?? Anyway, the point of the matter is the engineer on the auto train couldn't and didn't stop before running into the UP manifest.. And there is a lot of speculation like there is with every accident, at some time it will be told what happen and why, the ONLY good thing is there were no injuries or deaths for that matter!! One little note, if I don't feel comfortable running on restricted lights I don't to me there is no good reason to put my job or conductors job on the line.. Especially if the crew in front of me won't talk!! Just my ten cents..

Posted from iPhone

Class 1 railroads are notorious for having wrecks that are easily stopped by communication which management comes down hard on the crews and says if the railroad is busy to keep the radio clear as much as possible for the dispatcher to talk to crews and hi -railers working. However, if you are a train and stop, then realize it may be for a while how hard is it to either tone up the dispatcher? or until the dispatcher answers have one of the crew call over the radio every 2 to 5 minutes and say "UP 7510 all stopped at mp 100 dpu at mp 99.5 over." Then when the train hears from the dispatcher ask if there is a train behind and how far away the train is. Ask for the engine number and have the dispatcher or the crew call out "BNSF 7310" Then when the bnsf answers say "UP 7510 all stopped mp 100 dpu at mp 99.5.
Yes it may be annoying to crews and hi railers and the dispatcher to do all have to hear this over the radio, but if it saves lives, keeps people at their job in their seat, and causes millions of dollars to be saved... However, generally this is not done. I have friends work for railroads and when I bring up what they should do, they say things like "management does not want us on the radio, or that is not how railroad culture works, or that involves working."
I don't know about all of you who work on railroads, but it seems to me the occasional talk on the radio could very easily save your job, your lives, and others who live near by.

"I can't imagine running on rule 6.27 in the dark DOWNHILL on the Tehachapi mountains I think the minimum I would feel safe was a solid yellow? "


Why ever would one proceed at restricted speed down that mountain instead of waiting for a better indication ?? I am asking, not judging, since I know nothing about this specific scenario.

Bill Miller
Galt, ON

Not directly related to this incident, but recently I have had some of the newer units will shut down when set up in DP service. This is both the controlling DP unit on the lead consist, and the remote controlling DP unit(s) cut-in or on the rear of the train. They will just count down from the 5 minutes like a non DP unit will and then the autostart shuts them down. Don't really like it on the non-leading consist DP units, but hey, I'm not the one making the decisions.