Western Railroad Discussion > 2014 BN Crew Consist

Been talking to other rails, reading these threads, emails between union leadership, have read parts of this agreement etc.

Do any of you "old heads" here know anything about the current crew consist? There have been so many rumors over the course of my career. The most prevalent being that the former ATSF crew consist agreement expires when the last protected employee retires. If something else isn't negotiated now will the company be able to just abolish the conductor's position when the current crew consist expires? This is how most people out here understand it. As in, last conductor retires, crew consist expires, start handing out pink slips (from a union standpoint not regulatory standpoint).

I am not familiar with the former ATSF crew consist agreement,but I think the PEB 219 award pretty much set the consist as a engineer and conductor. Local freights would have a engineer ,conductor, and brakeman.Keep in mind each general committee is autonomous and can negotiate its own crew consist agreement. The Missouri Pacific Upper Lines General Committee negotiated a full time reduced crew agreement with a reserve board in 1987, four years before the UP General Committee negotiated a agreement. This meant the Missouri Pacific crews were all three man and the UP crews were still four man until the PEB 219 award came along. This caused a certain amount resentment on the part of the UP crews at the time; at least here in the Kansas City Terminal.

I'm not sure PEB 219 applied to the Santa Fe as they had already negotiated their own agreement. (?) I don't know is why I'm asking. The railroad is a rumor mill, people repeat what they hear but it seems like no one actually knows anything. I have got mixed answers from union leadership within the same GO and even local.

handsignals Wrote:
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> I have got mixed answers from union leadership
> within the same GO and even local.

Shocker.

The 2014 BN Crew consist agreement... that's like the Three Little Pigs inviting the Big Bad Wolf into their brickhouse. Gen. Chairman Randall Knutson is a nut; voted out of International. Seems like this is his joining away present as he is retiring in Sept.. He is stirring the sh*t. You know its not coming from the "boots on the ground". Why would BN oldheads give up their Productivity fund prematurely?!

I'm not an oldhead, but I do work on the Former ATSF. I also work with the youngest, protected pre-85 groundsman (1980). As we understand it, it's after the last protected ATSF pre-85er is gone like his red and yellow caboose. He has maybe 5-7 years.

There was an article in one of the trains magazines a couple of years ago about a short line road that went to one-man operating crews. The gist of the thing was that if anything went wrong, the engineer called dispatch and they sent out crews to fix the problem. Translate that to some of the lines operated by UP or BNSF out west and there is a possibility the train would be stuck for eight or ten hours. I wonder how that would affect the operation of the railroad...?

> The most prevalent being that the former ATSF crew consist agreement expires when the last protected employee retires

In the 19865 [UTU] manning agreement, the parties agreed not to revisit crew size issues until the all those adversely affected by crew size reductions had retired. Post-1985 guys aren't so affected.

>I am not familiar with the former ATSF crew consist agreement,but I think the PEB 219 award pretty much set the consist as a engineer and conductor.

Read through it, and all I could find is words to the effect of "you guys negotiate crew consist issues locally", which means "RR by RR".

I doubt they'll do it out west, seems taylored for the short runs and the east to some extent.

matts15487 Wrote:
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> I doubt they'll do it out west, seems taylored for
> the short runs and the east to some extent.

As I read the proposed agreement, any thru freight operating on PTC territory would be engineer only. 'Master Conductors' would assist multiple trains in their 8 hour shift -utilizing a company provided vehicle. Locals and Road Switchers would become engineer & conductor only. Hybrid jobs would have a yard foreman and helper (one of which is trained to operate the locomotive & train conventionally but not necessarily be a certified engineer). Sounds like SMART really sold its members down the river...

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stampedej Wrote:
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> Sounds like SMART really sold its
> members down the river...

Let's make sure we don't propagate generalizations here. This proposed contract was the work of one general SMART committee, GO-001, which covers BNSF lines on the former NP, CB&Q, SLSF, and yards formerly belonging to GN. This is according to the article about the contract I read in Railway Age so take that FWIW.

Nonetheless, this was not proposed by the national, who in fact, seemed (on the surface) to know little about it. As did General Committee GO-009, which covers the former ATSF lines on the BNSF. Both seemed to be taken by surprise by this proposal and both have issued statements denouncing it to varying degrees.

Although I am a member (fortunately we have a great local where I work), I'm not a big fan of UTU/SMART. But it their defense, it seems in this instance, it was the local that hung their members out to dry quite out of the blue. If this awful proposal does nothing else, it will firmly galvanize all railroaders on one side of the issue or the other, forcing other locals, the national, and other collective bargaining units to act accordingly.

BNSF is big on block swapping intermodal trains on line, it would seem even with a master conductor driving around helping that swapping would become more time consuming and complicated. Maybe they don't do as much on this General lodges territory as they do on the others. I just don't see how BNSF needs more congestion or a slower railroad right now.

Now imagine a train getting a knuckle in the middle of Cascade Tunnel and the RR calling out assistance from the 'master conductor' in Seattle. Hmmmmm.

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stampedej Wrote:
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> Now imagine a train getting a knuckle in the
> middle of Cascade Tunnel and the RR calling out
> assistance from the 'master conductor' in Seattle.
> Hmmmmm.
>
> Posted from iPhone

Sorry. That's when they'll start hanging RCO beltpacks on the back wall of the locos and instruct the hoghead to "do the best you can." And tell him he can fill out a timeclaim which will of course be denied, and the Master Conductor in Seattle will also fill out a time claim (also denied: "it wasn't our fault that you couldn't make it to the middle of the Cascade Tunnel in a timely fashion is the basis for denying your claim."). Now, do I sound THAT crazy, or WHAT?!?

OliveHeights Wrote:
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> BNSF is big on block swapping intermodal trains on
> line, it would seem even with a master conductor
> driving around helping that swapping would become
> more time consuming and complicated. Maybe they
> don't do as much on this General lodges territory
> as they do on the others. I just don't see how
> BNSF needs more congestion or a slower railroad
> right now.

I don't know any more about this than anyone else, but I would think at places where work is a common there would be a permanent "master" conductor stationed. Or if it was seen that a heavy load was coming, one would be called extra to help. Speculation of course.

<Now imagine a train getting a knuckle in the middle of Cascade Tunnel and the RR calling out assistance from the 'master conductor' in Seattle. Hmmmmm. >

I would wonder if the same applies to this. Of course at this point we have no idea where these conductors will be based.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/14 19:11 by portlander.

Even if they are based in strategic locations providing 24-hour coverage, the number of people working as conductors on the districts covered by this agreement will be decimated.

trainjunkie Wrote:
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> Even if they are based in strategic locations
> providing 24-hour coverage, the number of people
> working as conductors on the districts covered by
> this agreement will be decimated.


Absolutely

Every train dog caught has about the same crew cost as a current two person crew which makes it.

I can see the master conductor hauling the relief engineer out to the train and the out of time engineer to the terminal saving contract hauler costs. That of course means one less MC around to assist in train movement.

Yes, there will be remote belt packs in chargers on the locomotive electrical cabinet.

I can think of oh so many places the MC will not be able to get to especially in the winter and foul weather. In those locations the engineer will be on his own.

It is a good time to be retired.


Posted from Windows Phone OS 7



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/14 20:49 by fbe.

Regarding the original question from handsignals. Yes, that's the way we've (pre-85 guys) understood it to read. That it cannot be opened until the last one of us is gone. It's sort of a running joke that the young ones treat us well so we'll last longer since they also benefit while we're around. ;-) Who really knows what'll happen after what's passed this week? Can't help but think of the last pre-85 guy left as being like a passenger pigeon...somebody going to try and snuff him, stuff him or maybe save him?

fbe Wrote:
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> Every train dog caught has about the same crew
> cost as a current two person crew which makes it.
>
>
> I can see the master conductor hauling the relief
> engineer out to the train and the out of time
> engineer to the terminal saving contract hauler
> costs. That of course means one less MC around to
> assist in train movement.
>
> Yes, there will be remote belt packs in chargers
> on the locomotive electrical cabinet.
>
> I can think of oh so many places the MC will not
> be able to get to especially in the winter and
> foul weather. In those locations the engineer will
> be on his own.
>
> It is a good time to be retired.
>
>
> Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

You couldn't have said it BETTER. It will be interesting to see how many actually vote on the UTU side to "slit their own throats" while also screwing those sitting alongside of them on the right-hand side of the cab so that he/she will be doing BOTH crafts' work and overwhelmed by such at the expense of public safety, customer service, and...no REAL contribution to the RR's "bottom line." Other than to their (the RRs) satisfaction to be able to say: "See, we wanted this, and we got it." Just like the RCO debacle. From which productivity has yet to arise, and in flat-switching ops, has DRASTICALLY dropped!!! And in one yard I know well, they switched but FIFTEEN CARS on the daylight shift with RCO on one end yesterday, and a 50-car autorack on the other end (but, in 5 large blocks--equivalent basically of switching 5 cars). The other yard in same terminal that was fully-equipped with RCO, RCO Ops were ripped out and ABANDONED after all the money spent on it!!! (And sorry, will not be naming the terminal as I am not going to be "shining a light" on it, or on friends working there in all crafts and in mgmt). So either trust me on this, or call me a liar, or disregard because I didn't provide "facts and figures."

But those of you on here that sign up for this (vote "yes"), well, (and for a $5000.00 signing bonus?!?), I can't print on here what I think of your motives. But for those of you on this 5500 or so member board (I do not know of which portion of you are rails) that get out there and WORK through your General Chairmen, Local Chairmen, Legislative Reps, and DIRECTLY through your Congressmen and U.S. Senators, my hat is off to you! As FBE is dead right as to what you as hogheads will be facing, and the other gentleman said about the "decimation of the conductor ranks."

And you younger rails? This should be a very fearful time for you. I hate to say this, but it's true...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/23/14 21:11 by Red.

Inform new rails, they can break us. Get them to see the bigger picture.

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