Western Railroad Discussion > Operations within Industries

I'm building a small 2' X 9' shelf layout. It will be industrial in nature, probably an ethanol refinery. Since Class 1 rules require that the industry do their own switching and spotting, I'll be using a trackmobile or small switcher to do the work.

Despite my searches, I can't find much about how industrial operations work in the real world.

Do industries rely on track warrants, switch lists, a daily schedule or some sort? Perhaps a foreman controlling spotting moves over a MURS band radio?

I'd appreciate hearing more about how to realistically approach operations on my layout from someone who knows about how the prototype operates.

Les

I'd also love to see any examples of switch lists, work orders, etc. if anyone has samples. Thanks. Love Trainorders.com...always learn so much here.

Which rules require the industry to do their own switching? I've never heard of this.

Posted from Android

At the ethanol plant I work at we build unit trains of feed and ethanol,,no track warrents since we are our own yard. We have designated loop tracks of where we put loaded and empty cars.

We have a manager that supervises us and gives general directions of what he wants done. When a unit train is done our sales team will bill it to the railroad to come get it.
Any other questions please PM me.
JC

Posted from Android

In he 70's I worked at a door mfg company in Dallas that received boxcars of lumber.
The traffic manager would meet and greet the Rock Island switcher
at the gate ( there was a direct line phone at the gate) and would go
out and unlock it, and direct the crew where to spot the car(s). We had
I think 6 doors to spot cars. Delivery usually was 2-4 cars and the Rock
also picked up empties on the same visit.

The traffic mgr would always have a paper in his hand so he must have gotten a heads
up at to exactly what was coming before the switcher actually showed up. Not sure
about that process as this was a summer job and I was on the business end of a shaper.

There was a bathroom near the loading docks and it seemed like I always needed to
use the plumbing when that switch job showed up. :-)

Also there was a Frito Lay plant across the street from our plant the the Rock switcher delivered
many tank cars there (potatoes came in by truck). Their gate was normally closed too So
I can only assume they had a similar arrangement for access. I would imagine at bigger plants
A crew might have their own key or have the combination or code?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 05:15 by WrongWayMurphy.

portlander Wrote:
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> Which rules require the industry to do their own
> switching? I've never heard of this.
>
> Posted from Android


Same here. Never heard of any rule, regulation or requirement that industries do their own switching. If that's the case though, I guess I was just dreaming for 42 years as that is pretty much all I ever did on the RR, switch industries.


V

SLOCONDR

Larger plants do their own switching -- or hire contractors to do it -- because that's generally cheaper to do than to pay the big railroads' switching charges. There's no rule involved. At the Cargill processing plant in North Dayton, OH, B&O/CSX used to do the switching, but some years ago they hired a contractor and certain tracks in Needmore Yard were designated for the contractor's access. Kind of wonder how the brotherhoods reacted to that, but it happened.

As for how they do it, that's pretty much unregulated, too. Within plant grounds, it's up to the individual company to decide how to operate safely. Their safety departments, and possibly their insurance carriers, too, probably get a few words in. The real complications arise if a plant is big enough to have two or more switching crews working simultaneously in the same area - that's when communication and operating rules really come into play. Steel mills and refineries are two examples I can think of where you often see multiple switch crews working.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 07:45 by toledopatch.

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Larger plants do their own switching -- or hire
> contractors to do it -- because that's generally
> cheaper to do than to pay the big railroads'
> switching charges. There's no rule involved. At
> the Cargill processing plant in North Dayton, OH,
> B&O/CSX used to do the switching, but some years
> ago they hired a contractor and certain tracks in
> Needmore Yard were designated for the contractor's
> access. Kind of wonder how the brotherhoods
> reacted to that, but it happened.
>
> As for how they do it, that's pretty much
> unregulated, too. Within plant grounds, it's up to
> the individual company to decide how to operate
> safely. Their safety departments, and possibly
> their insurance carriers, too, probably get a few
> words in. The real complications arise if a plant
> is big enough to have two or more switching crews
> working simultaneously in the same area - that's
> when communication and operating rules really come
> into play. Steel mills and refineries are two
> examples I can think of where you often see
> multiple switch crews working.


Yeah a lot of it depends on the size of the plant. I went to qualify on a yard job recently that works two primary industries... Honeywell and RockTenn. Both are quite large, but Honeywell is a beast among beasts... many hundreds of cars will be on property at any given time. Thus they've got their own switch crews with these little yellow switchers that look a bit like SW1500s but only have 2 axles. We just deliver loads to a track where they can pick them up then come back later and grab the empties from another track after switching RockTenn. They get them all switched from around the plant and gather them together for us.

RockTenn however, though still a big place, is switched by us. They've got tracks for boxcars that get loaded with paper, a track for boxcars that get scrap paper unloaded, a couple of different tracks for spotting a tank car or two, another track for covered hoppers of what they call "saltcake", a coal track for the powerhouse and a few storage tracks. All are switched by the railroads. CSX and NS at various times.

So yeah, no rule... it just depends.

My understanding, which is very limited. Comes from a few articles in the Model Railroad press about ethanol operations. According to those articles, some of the Class 1 had restrictions about switching ethanol cars. They could easily be mistaken, which is why I prefer to get information about the prototype directly from those involved. Sorry if I created confusion with that statement.

I've narrowed my choices down to an ethanol plant or traditional oil refinery. Obviously, I'll only be modeling a small part of either facility. My desire is to build a modern era railroad, set in New Mexico. For example, the Abengoa ethanol plant near Portales, NM.

I suspect each industry and location are different, but I just wondered if it's typical to use switch lists, two way radios, etc. Obviously, if the local switcher accessed the main line, they'd need permission from the Class 1 dispatcher, but I'm interested in how shops handle things on their own yards.

Going to send some PM's about ethanol...Love to hear these great stories about how it's done in the real world!

Here is what I remember how Dow Chemical in Torrance, CA was switched.

There were 6 tracks: A, 1-4, and the liquid styrene track.

ATSF switching: ATSF usually showed up late afternoon to early evening with a switch list and incoming cars. Once they opened the gate, they controlled the plant. They would pull cars (loads and empties) from any track and place cars (empties and loads) on any track according to a switch list they had. I am guessing the switch list was made by the plant traffic manager earlier in the day.

Intra-Plant Switching: They had a track mobile that a crew of 2 would use to switch cars within the plant tracks 1-4 as cars were emptied or loaded and needed to be moved to spot other cars for loading or unloading.

I am sure 3rdswitch can add more to this since he was often the engineer on the job switching Dow Chemical for ATSF.

Would there be additional rules for crews switching an ethanol plant or oil refinery?

I know there are multiple layers of Department of Homeland Security rules for haz-mat or other sensitive facilities. It would make sense to have people on deck who have already qualified on the specifics of a particular plant.

Thanks

N1LF Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I suspect each industry and location are
> different, but I just wondered if it's typical to
> use switch lists, two way radios, etc. Obviously,
> if the local switcher accessed the main line,
> they'd need permission from the Class 1
> dispatcher, but I'm interested in how shops handle
> things on their own yards.

Just to clarify, I can't imagine an industry switch crew being allowed to enter the main line under any circumstances. There are certainly instances of shared tracks to which both a railroad-company crew and an industry crew would have access, but entering the main line would be a huge no-no. In any case of ambiguity, I would expect a well-delineated property line beyond which the industry crews may not pass. One example that comes to mind here in Toledo is the Nabisco flour mill. When NS is switching that mill, I've never seen anything else moving. When the NS crew isn't there, Nabisco's little critters often can be seen shifting cars around, but I've yet to see one travel outside the plant gate.

There are no requirements requiring industries do their own switching. These days the Class 1s do not want to provide crews and locos to do that kind of work. Some industries are happy to do it for a lower shipping charge and to be able to move cars as needed instead of waiting for the Class 1 crew to get there.

The papermill west of Missoula was once switched by the Milwaukee Road, the Northern Pacific and they had two of their own switchers.

Posted from Windows Phone OS 7

Excellent point.

I spend a lot of time watching local steel mills and limestone plants operate their little switchers and trackmobiles. Never seen one past the gates or anywhere near the mainline.

In the "old" days, an industry would fax over a switchlist to the RR on what they want done that day. Maybe they still use fax machines, I don't know. Here's a Hills Pet Nutrition and a Great Western Malting list from the 90s which were on the LAJ. (Both no longer in business in LA.)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/29/15 10:02 by chrisbutts.

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toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> N1LF Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > I suspect each industry and location are
> > different, but I just wondered if it's typical
> to
> > use switch lists, two way radios, etc.
> Obviously,
> > if the local switcher accessed the main line,
> > they'd need permission from the Class 1
> > dispatcher, but I'm interested in how shops
> handle
> > things on their own yards.
>
> Just to clarify, I can't imagine an industry
> switch crew being allowed to enter the main line
> under any circumstances. There are certainly
> instances of shared tracks to which both a
> railroad-company crew and an industry crew would
> have access, but entering the main line would be a
> huge no-no. In any case of ambiguity, I would
> expect a well-delineated property line beyond
> which the industry crews may not pass. One example
> that comes to mind here in Toledo is the Nabisco
> flour mill. When NS is switching that mill, I've
> never seen anything else moving. When the NS crew
> isn't there, Nabisco's little critters often can
> be seen shifting cars around, but I've yet to see
> one travel outside the

At bigger plants, there are usually dedicated tracks for the Class 1, the industry, and the interchange. Often these can be protected by derails, blue flags, switch locks, etc. The RR would call the plant, request access, and complete their work once granted access. Some places they don't even do this, the RR shows up, makes their drop, and leaves.

Usually, the industry and RR crews will not intermingle for safety reasons and by design. For example, the RR delivers to the industries interchange track, and the industry does whatever they need to do from there. The RR/industry would have no reason to interact. At huge complexes this sometimes isn't the case, and the RR crew is governed by the industries yardmaster or what have you. But these instructions are laid out in perfect detail in the timetable and/or bulletins.

I cant imagine a scenario were an industry would be granted permission to open up on the mainline, aside from the legal and safety issues, they would have no reason too.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which rules require the industry to do their own
> switching? I've never heard of this.
>
> Posted from Android


I think he meant on his layout, his Class I will require the industry to do their switching. You guys are confusing fiction with reality. :-)

Bill G.

portlander Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Which rules require the industry to do their own
> switching? I've never heard of this.
>
> Posted from Android

he asked if that was the case ... he didn't state that was the case

Out_Of_Service Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> portlander Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Which rules require the industry to do their
> own
> > switching? I've never heard of this.
> >
> > Posted from Android
>
> he asked if that was the case ... he didn't state
> that was the case


Yes, he did. This is a statement, not a question: "Since Class 1 rules require that the industry do their own switching and spotting, I'll be using a trackmobile or small switcher to do the work."

toledopatch Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Out_Of_Service Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > portlander Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Which rules require the industry to do their
> > own
> > > switching? I've never heard of this.
> > >
> > > Posted from Android
> >
> > he asked if that was the case ... he didn't
> state
> > that was the case
>
>
> Yes, he did. This is a statement, not a question:
> "Since Class 1 rules require that the industry do
> their own switching and spotting, I'll be using a
> trackmobile or small switcher to do the work."

my dislexia working overtime ... i stand corrected