Western Railroad Discussion > UP "Z" train hits the dirt in Arizona

ZLCMQ2 (LATC to Mesquite [Dallas], TX), derailed at speed, 30+ cars, within the last hour.


Allen



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/18 16:39 by bradleymckay.

Wouldn't surprise me. The monsoon is causing problems everywhere out here.  We lost power for 3 hours and the winds were knocking trees and electrical poles down. This is the 2nd day in a row it looks really bad out there.  Hope everyone is okay and stays safe!

SouthWest RailCams
CA, NM, CO, TX, AZ
https://SouthWestRailCams.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/10/18 17:13 by RailFanAZ.

Any further information on exact location in Arizona?

Head end with power or trailing cars only? At speed is a death sentence...

Posted from Android

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/12/18 10:41 by darkcloud.

Google:   AZStarnet.com   They have a number of pics of the derailment.

Back in the Southern Pacific days, we had "P" plates on many areas to protect the track. In the desert area, most were high water detectors for washouts. I remember one high water dector in particular, just east of Acolita , between Niland and Yuma at MP691.6. When UP took over they took the detectors out, they were not "UP standard." With in six months, an eastbound auto train went in the ditch there due to a monsoon washout. For that matter, not much of SP was "UP Stndard."

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When UP took over they took
> the detectors out, they were not "UP standard."
> With in six months, an eastbound auto train went
> in the ditch there due to a monsoon washout. For
> that matter, not much of SP was "UP Stndard."

"UP standard" is not fit for the desert when it comes to Monsoons!  Out here with Monsoons, you need those detectors, it gets crazy out there! 

SouthWest RailCams
CA, NM, CO, TX, AZ
https://SouthWestRailCams.com

High water detector is useless when the head end of a trian goes over a wash that is dry and 20 seconds later the tracks over that wash get wiped out at the hands of a flash flood.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> High water detector is useless when the head end
> of a trian goes over a wash that is dry and 20
> seconds later the tracks over that wash get wiped
> out at the hands of a flash flood.

Oh really! They always worked on the SP for many many years. I always remember when they, UP, took over. Oh, we don't do it that way on the UP was the mantra.  You guys remember the "UP Way?"

That's what I hated about the merger with the UP/CNW......same arrogant attitude with our ATC equipped locations, they managed to ruin all of that territory too! This is sad but doesn't surprise me at all, good news there were no injuries....

mstlouie Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's what I hated about the merger with the
> UP/CNW......same arrogant attitude with our ATC
> equipped locations, they managed to ruin all of
> that territory too! This is sad but doesn't
> surprise me at all, good news there were no
> injuries....

Not to downplay what you said, but can you elaborate a bit?  I borrowed out to Chicago 4 years ago and ATC was still operational, and it was quite a terrible system in my opinion. How did UP ruin it?

HogheadMike Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> mstlouie Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > That's what I hated about the merger with the
> > UP/CNW......same arrogant attitude with our ATC
> > equipped locations, they managed to ruin all of
> > that territory too! This is sad but doesn't
> > surprise me at all, good news there were no
> > injuries....
>
> Not to downplay what you said, but can you
> elaborate a bit?  I borrowed out to Chicago 4
> years ago and ATC was still operational, and it
> was quite a terrible system in my opinion. How did
> UP ruin it?

I'll second that request for "How did UP ruin it?".

I was on a number of UP steam trips from Omaha-Council Bluffs to Chicago, and that damned "C&NW ATC" system drove us nuts. Can't tell you how many times were were ruining along at 60 to 70MPH when that stupid "alarm" went off, and the green on the cab signal box dropped to restricting. My Engineer was all arms and elbows getting the air set, the independent bailed off and the throttle closed, while I quickly shut the fire darned near off, and ran across the cab to but the Nathan injector on in order to keep from lifting a safety. The speed has to be reduced to something like 17 MPH, as the ATC system also has a speed input to the system, and if the Engineer doesn't do it, you get a penalty application.

At any rate, after awhile, the cab signal box just goes "bleep" and on come the green light again. So,,,,,,,away we go!  Until the damned thing "goes off" again, and back down to below 17 MPH. On one of the trips, with 3985, it was raining so hard, that the stupid ATC system in the track kept changing from clear to restricting about every 5 miles. Engineer Lee finally got fed-up, so we just stayed at about 15 MPH until we got through the storm.

We wondered how the C&NW folks handling 15,000+ coal trains dealt with that stupid ATC.

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > High water detector is useless when the head
> end
> > of a trian goes over a wash that is dry and 20
> > seconds later the tracks over that wash get
> wiped
> > out at the hands of a flash flood.
>
> Oh really! They always worked on the SP for many
> many years. I always remember when they, UP, took
> over. Oh, we don't do it that way on the UP was
> the mantra.  You guys remember the "UP Way?"

Please explain then how a high water detector would have prevented this accident since it appears that the flash flood occured WHILE/AFTER the head end crossed the wash since it appears the washout occured AFTER the head end passed.

Maybe try carefully reading my post. I never said that they would never work. I gave a specific example in which a high water detector is useless.

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jst3751 Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > High water detector is useless when the head
> > end
> > > of a trian goes over a wash that is dry and
> 20
> > > seconds later the tracks over that wash get
> > wiped
> > > out at the hands of a flash flood.
> >
> > Oh really! They always worked on the SP for
> many
> > many years. I always remember when they, UP,
> took
> > over. Oh, we don't do it that way on the UP was
> > the mantra.  You guys remember the "UP Way?"
>
> Please explain then how a high water detector
> would have prevented this accident since it
> appears that the flash flood occured WHILE/AFTER
> the head end crossed the wash since it appears the
> washout occured AFTER the head end passed.
>
> Maybe try carefully reading my post. I never said
> that they would never work. I gave a specific
> example in which a high water detector is useless.

I can't find it now, but one of the local media (PHX) morning shows had video of the derailment happening and the lead locomotives went through deep water, sending up a huge splash. The train only derailed halfway back. And a washout has not been confirmed yet, has it?

jst3751...are you a railbuff or do/did you work for a railroad?

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751...are you a railbuff or do/did you work
> for a railroad?

I see, instead of admitting that you are wrong in your response to my very specific example, you want to find a way to attack me personally? What I do for work now or in the past has nothing to do with my knowledge of how fast a flash flood can travel and change conditions of an area.

i think "high water detectors" are a part of a valuable protection system regarding trains and flash floods.

the other part is the dispatcher's flash flood warnings given over the radio to a specific geographic area.........

66

jst3751 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HardYellow Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > jst3751...are you a railbuff or do/did you work
> > for a railroad?
>
> I see, instead of admitting that you are wrong in
> your response to my very specific example, you
> want to find a way to attack me personally? What I
> do for work now or in the past has nothing to do
> with my knowledge of how fast a flash flood can
> travel and change conditions of an area


Well, I live about 20 miles from where the derailment occurred. According to local reports, water was over the tracks, before the eastbound train hit the high water. A high water detector would have triggered approach signals, in each direction, to red. You would stop the train, proceed at restricted speed to where the protective device is located (the timetable would tell you the location), stop again and inspect the track. That's about the only answer I can give you. The device itself is very simple, a vertical pipe with holes and a bobber inside, it rises with the water lever and trips a relay that turns the signals red. Here's the only photo I could find of a "P" plate on a block singnal. It , the "P" could protect a number of things, slide dector, barrier, derail, high water, etc.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/11/18 18:24 by HardYellow.

---

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HardYellow Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > jst3751...are you a railbuff or do/did you
> work
> > > for a railroad?
> >
> > I see, instead of admitting that you are wrong
> in
> > your response to my very specific example, you
> > want to find a way to attack me personally? What
> I
> > do for work now or in the past has nothing to
> do
> > with my knowledge of how fast a flash flood can
> > travel and change conditions of an area
>
>
> Well, I live about 20 miles from where the
> derailment occurred. According to local reports,
> water was over the tracks, before the eastbound
> train hit the high water. A high water detector
> would have triggered approach signals, in each
> direction, to red. You would stop the train,
> proceed at restricted speed to where the
> protective device is located (the timetable would
> tell you the location), stop again and inspect the
> track. That's about the only answer I can give
> you. The device itself is very simple, a vertical
> pipe with holes and a bobber inside, it rises with
> the water lever and trips a relay that turns the
> signals red. Here's the only photo I could find of
> a "P" plate on a block singnal. It , the "P" could
> protect a number of things, slide dector, barrier,
> derail, high water, etc.

Great. I never said they would never work and be helpful. Maybe go back and try rereading my post that you wrongly responded to. Oh wait, here, let me make it easy for you:

HardYellow Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jst3751 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > High water detector is useless when the head
> end
> > of a trian goes over a wash that is dry and 20
> > seconds later the tracks over that wash get
> wiped
> > out at the hands of a flash flood.
>
> Oh really! They always worked on the SP for many
> many years. I always remember when they, UP, took
> over. Oh, we don't do it that way on the UP was
> the mantra.  You guys remember the "UP Way?"

See, I gave a very specific example which holds 1,000% true. Yet you clearly didn't bother to read and understand EXACTLY what it was I wrote and said.  Your responce was wrong and uncalled for.

END OF STORY!