Western Railroad Discussion > Hey pal, who broke yer nose?

That’s quite the snout ya got there, fella…

1. BNSF 103 stares west with that off-set headlight. Gotta be the goofiest looking engine nose I’ve seen in quite a while! Evidently the 6702, one track to the north is so embarrassed he has to look the other way. This unattractive moment brought to you from Abilene, KS on September 5, 2019.

Thanks for not staring!
Lance Garrels
santafe199

---

Looks like a deviated septum in the nose  : )
John

Well, if you guys in Kansas are going to make fun of them then send them back home to California.
We don't judge out here!

PHall Wrote: > ...  you guys in Kansas are going to make fun ... We don't judge out here!

Ohhhhh, Seriously? The guy right above you had fun with this thead, just as it was intended. I guess I forgot to add a little winky/smiley face so "you serious guys" in California can know a light-heated thread from a serious complaint. When's the last time time you enjoyed a lighter moment in your life? 1991?? This is a HOBBY. Hobbies are for having fun. Get used to it...

Lance/199

(PS: go ahead and add a belated statement that you were only poking fun...)

PHall Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, if you guys in Kansas are going to make fun
> of them then send them back home to California.
> We don't judge out here!

I thought this hobby was supposed to be fun.

Lance, this is probably my second favorite Santa Fe engine, but you are not hurting my feelings.  It only shows on a straight on shot anyway.  Most photographs with the GP60ms , you couldn't tell the headlight was off center.  I think it showed up more on the red and silver head on than it does in the orange.

Anyway, that is a nice shot.

Randy Lundgren

 Seems like he was just having fun. Capt

Gotta confess, other than in a head-on view, I really don't tend to notice that the headlight is off-center on the GP60M's.  This cab/nose design is what evolved after Santa Fe tested a Canadian National SD50F with a 4-window cab:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,4506009

Rather than go with the off-the-shelf 4-window design or the 3-window "triclops" that UP and BN got on their first SD60M's, Santa Fe took employee comments from the test runs and worked with EMD to develop the 2-window design.  The off-center headlight was a compromise that allowed the nose door to be full-height across its entire width.  By most accounts, the cab still needed refining, but after some further tweeking, EMD did eventually make a modified 2-window cab its standard, taking a chunk out of one corner of the nose door as they shifted it to allow for a centered headlight. 

No offense to the Canadians, but I'm eternally grateful that Santa Fe didn't go with the off-the-shelf designs.  The GP60M's look sooo-o-o much better with their 2-window cabs than they would have with the 3- or 4-window designs, off-center headlight notwithstanding.

EMD was making cab designs like this long before the GP-60's:

--DDA40X
--FP-45
--F-45
--SDP-40 (Amtrak)
--F-40C's (Metra)
--F-40PH (Amtrak)

Only thing new is the off-centered headlight and big front door.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/19 11:10 by coach.

Some people just don't get a bit of sarcasm...

exhaustED Wrote: > ...  Some people ...

You're so right. You're always right. Some people have nothing but sarcastic exhaust...

;^)

santafe199 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> exhaustED Wrote: > ...  Some people ...
>
> You're so right. You're always right. Some people
> have nothing but sarcastic exhaust...
>
> ;^)

Too many meds... or maybe not enough today?

coach Wrote:

> EMD was making cab designs like this long before the GP-60's:
>
> --DDA40X
> --FP-45
> --F-45
> --SDP-40 (Amtrak)
> --F-40C's (Metra)
> --F-40PH (Amtrak)
>
> Only thing new is the off-centered headlight and big front door.

The cowl unit cabs were "like" the GP60M cab in having two "porkchop" front windows and a trapezoidal nose surface, but there is a lot more to a "safety" cab than just the shape.  Most of it is internal, making the cab stronger, but comparing an FP45 to a GP60M side-by-side reveals more subtle external differences:

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,1148050,1148050#1148050

The 60M has a lower roof profile, leading to smaller number boards.  Those number boards are also designed to be opened from the outside to change bulbs rather than from the inside, providing one less entry-point for debris in a collision. (The FP45's in that shot have also been modified with numberboards mounted in doors for external access only.  As built, FP45 number boards were mounted in the body sheet metal and only readily openable from inside the cab.)  Likewise, the "big front door" on the GP60M swings outward rather than inward, making it harder for collision debris to break it open and end up in the cab, a factor that might have saved a life if UP 6936 had had a true "safety cab" during its tragic grade crossing accident in November 2000:

https://www.trainboard.com/highball/index.php?threads/centennial-6936-involved-in-fatal-grade-crossing-accident.14325/
http://www.trainweb.org/arkansastrains/railroad/up6936/P0001809.JPG

Note also that a DDA40X cab has back doors on both sides, while the GP60M cab is like most standard cabs in only having a back door behind the engineer.  Not having the headlight in the nose door is also a plus in that you don't lose the headlight when the door is opened.  That was also an issue with the inward-swinging doors on the cowl unit cabs - I've heard more than one story of the nose door latch failing at speed at night and suddenly the crew doesn't have a headlight.

By the way, the SDP40 is a standard cab hood unit.  The cowl version is the SDP40F.  I think you'll also agree that an F40PH cab looks a lot different from the cabs on the other models you listed, and not just because it lacks a front door altogether: 

https://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?11,2450296

Evan_Werkema Wrote: > ...  more to a "safety" cab than just the shape ...

After I took MRL engineer promotion (May '90) I had at least 2 occasions, maybe 3 where I handled the B units of the 100 Class geeps. IIRC the shop at Livingston (LRC) did some kind of work either on, or involving them. I know LRC had computerized templates to paint Red & Silver Warbonnets, as well as many other RR schemes from around the country. Ironically (I may have, but) I don't recall ever having one of the offset-headlight, A unit cabs in consists I ran. And I'm 99.99% sure I never rode in one. I've heard from more than one fellow engineer their riding traits were "nothing to write home about"... 

I'll agree with your earlier assessment that they weren't all that noticeable from an angle. Unless you KNEW they were offset (pick me). Then they tended to stand out like a sore thumb. BTW: Thanks for the link! I had seen Schmo's great shot before, but not Kevin's. What great fun that must have been to be trackside with that train running...

Lance 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/20/19 15:51 by santafe199.

santafe199 Wrote:

> I've heard from more than one
> fellow engineer their riding traits were "nothing
> to write home about"... 

Yes, reportly the 60M's and the 500-series GE's rode really poorly.  I've never heard a good comment about the ride quality of 4-axle GE's whether on Type B's or floating bolsters, but the EMD Blomberg usually gets relatively good marks.  The GP60M's, though, were apparently too heavy even for these "good trucks."  I recall reading that for a while Santa Fe even tried not filling the fuel tanks all the way to reduce the weight and improve the ride. 

Amtrak California experienced something similar with their F59PHI's, and went through a series of different snubber arrangements to try to make them tolerable.  Reportedly the isolated cab didn't help matters, and I don't know if they ever did make them ride "well."

In Canada, the discussion about the "Safety Cab" design started in the early 1970's. A CN mechanical engineer , Bob Radford is credited with coming up with many of the concepts of the design.

On CN, there had been collisions where crew members were ejected out the front cab door on a conventional cab unit, so the concept of an front entrance in the centre of the cab came up.

Crews working through the Thompson and Fraser river canyons preferred to have an F7a leading. Experience had shown a cab unit handled avalanches better than hood units, so the concept of the full width nose was arrived at..

Hood units, even the SD40's were cold in winter, and the front door was found to be a major source of heat loss. The method of heating the conventional cabs , forced air heaters and electric strip (space) heaters were found to be inefficient and the strip heaters sometimes caused operating cab fires.

The only way to efficiently heat the cab was to have an air space between the front door and an internal door. Heating was supplied by a single electric furnace.

Another feature was the fact the safety cab offered better protection in a roll over. The framework of the whole cab structure was stronger than that of the older cab designs.

Purists will note that the "North American" cab design does not have all the features of the original "Safety Cab", but it has made all locomotives safer across the Continent.

 

santafe199 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> PHall Wrote: > ...  you guys in Kansas are going
> to make fun ... We don't judge out here!
>
> Ohhhhh, Seriously? The guy right above you had fun
> with this thead, just as it was intended. I guess
> I forgot to add a little winky/smiley face so "you
> serious guys" in California can know a
> light-heated thread from a serious complaint.
> When's the last time time you enjoyed a lighter
> moment in your life? 1991?? This is a HOBBY.
> Hobbies are for having fun. Get used to it...
>
> Lance/199
>
> (PS: go ahead and add a belated statement that you
> were only poking fun...)

Geez, Calm down buddy.....you might give yourself a stroke.  

AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

agentatascadero Wrote: > ... Calm down ...

You're late, AH! You almost missed your chance...

Posted from Android

I might be the only guy who thinks this, but I find it funny that the worst and the best ridding EMD 4 axles came out right about the same time. GP60 by and large ride exceptionally well for a 4 axle in my experience. Where as the GP60M is awful and will throw you all over the place. As for the GE side of things I've never had a B40-8W so I can't comment on them, but B40-8 left a lot to be desired... 

Foamductor Wrote: > ... never ... but B40-8 left a lot to be desired... 

I never did either, but I rode in plenty of BN-leased LMX B39-8s, which I assume would be closely similar, if not identical to the B40s. Many of us here on TO have made deeply unfavorable comments about the LMX ride. My own favorite description was "gut-jarring pieces of $#!+". They were far and away the single most hated engine class I ever experienced in my 32 years...

Posted from Android