Western Railroad Discussion > UP's publicity about cab signal removal. Wayside signals next?

Copied from UP's publicity on getting rid of cab signals:

With the ongoing expansion of PTC and thanks to a federal waiver that allowed trains to operate with PTC in lieu of cab signals, Union Pacific began to phase out the use of cab signals in 2016. However, regulators still required cab signal systems remain active and that a cab-signal-equipped locomotive be in the lead on every train just in case of a PTC failure. By the end of 2019, PTC had been installed on all cab signal lines – an even more significant milestone achieved by unprecedented cross-functional department coordination. And in 2021, PTC reliability warranted regulators to approve the full discontinuance of cab signals in mid-2022. And now Union Pacific Mechanical and Signal departments have begun decommissioning cab signal systems altogether. Aside from superior safety and operating benefits of PTC, the following are achieved through discontinuance of use of cab signals and associated equipment:

• Operational Fluidity – UP and “foreign” railroad PTC-equipped locomotives, which are not equipped with cab signals, can now “run-through” onto former Union Pacific cab signal territories without requiring a locomotive with cab signals to be placed in the lead. This provides more flexibility in the assignment of locomotives to trains and greatly reduces the time and logistics associated with interchange of a train. It also eliminates the need to keep additional locomotives on hand solely for this purpose. Many who live along Union Pacific’s lines between Chicago and Ogden had previously never seen a foreign locomotive lead a Union Pacific train!
• Improved Train-Handling – The old cab signal systems sometimes required engineers make sudden large brake applications in response to cab signal changes, resulting in broken couplers and damaged cargo. PTC displays locations where reduced speeds or stops will be required much further in advance, allowing the engineer to better plan train handling.
• Locomotive Reliability – Decommissioning onboard cab signal equipment removes onboard electronics which can fail, resulting in one less reason a locomotive is not available to lead a train.
• Cost Savings – Costs associated with maintenance of wayside and locomotive cab signal equipment are now eliminated; resources can be redirected to other areas.

Using the rails as a communications path to the locomotive was a clever and practical solution for safety and train control systems in its day. However, PTC and modern wireless data communications provide a quantum leap in capability for the next generation of signaling technologies and safety. One immediate opportunity is the elimination of wayside signal lights in favor the direct communications to the PTC computer display. Signal lamp removal will reduce power consumption at wayside signal locations and eliminate some maintenance costs.  

It is interesting watching the UP getting rid of cab signals.   I believe that Amtrak is keeping cab signals with their type of PTC system on the Northeast Corridor.  It is also interesting that they appear to start the push to get rid of wayside signals in after the Cab Signal removal.  I hope that there is an extreme look into safety considerations (protection from broken rails, PTC reliability and safety effectiveness, etc.) before complete elimination of all wayside signals is allowed to happen.

And then what, PTC boxes in HyRail vehicles?

Out 

callum_out Wrote:
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> And then what, PTC boxes in HyRail vehicles?
>
> Out 

Did HyRail vehicles have cab signals?

I'm just wondering about the removal of wayside signals.

Out 

Wayside signals may go but at least interlocking signals are here to stay.

Posted from Android

I predicted that a few years ago. It was when railroads were putting in new signals... Someone said, oh no, they still will need wayside signals.

Victor Baird

mttrainman1 Wrote:
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> Wayside signals may go but at least interlocking
> signals are here to stay.
 

I believe wayside signals will eventually be eliminated. Maybe not every single signal but the technology is there and is evolving, and there's no stopping it. Cab signals are still very common but becoming less and less common. I know Alstom has talked about Electrocode 6, a track circuit that is self adjusting and can span farther distances between signals. Virtual blocks will ensure follow up moves aren't limited to restricted speed if the train ahead is far enough away in the same physical block like they are today. And once the track circuit is set up at cutover there will be no maintainer involvement because it can interpret the codes with barely any current as opposed to the current Electrocode 5 and 4 which requires a certain level of current, and less signals/wayside devices means less testing by the maintainer which means less maintainers. We all know the name of the game for railroads is do more with less people.

As info, the last of the UP's Automated Cab Signal system (ACS) was retired on 12/21/22. This included basically Cheyenne to Ogden. The details of was was retired at the end...

Laramie Sub
MP 510.8 (Cheyenne, WY) to CP W683 (Rawlins, WY), except for main tracks 3 & 4 between MP 510.8 & West Speer, WY which had been retired previously

Rawlins Sub
CP W683 (Rawlins, WY) to CP G815 (Green River, WY)

Evanston Sub
CP G817 (Green River, WY) to CP G988 (East Riverdale, UT near Ogden, UT)

Still need Wayside signals if you are elimating Cab Signals... NS was dumb enough to remove the Wayside signals on the Pittsburgh Line when they completed signal upgrades in 2018-2019. Although it took them a LONG time to work the bugs out of the system. Shorter blocks than usual but I feel things work a little bit better that way. But I am no railroader especially on that line. The Fort Wayne Line between Alliance and Conway plus the Cleveland Line from Alliance to Cleveland is like that too. Signals at interlockers with no waysides..

Marc L

The elimination of waysides is in reference to "rolling block" technology which is not yet deployed.  Instead of having fixed signal blocks (Cab signals work wth a fixed signal block whether there are waysides or not.) using track circuits, the blocks are determined by computers, on board and back office with communications between all trains, switches, MOW vehicles, etc.   It's communication based train control and the length of blocks between trains change as conditions and speed of trains change.

 Some of those advocating such things say you could even remove track circuitry.  Most likely saner heads will prevail and a circuit, albeit longer, would be retained for broken rail protection.

They are working on this, but still have things to work out.  One report I saw a year or two back said it would take a lot of computing power.  They will also have to have EOTs that can be integrated into the system to know where the rear end is.  They are working on these.  One of the requirements I read for the next generation of EOTs is to be able to maintain communication with the lead engine on a 5 mile long train.   

Techies, who think everything should be computrized and automated are all for it.  Top management are all for anything that appears to reduce costs, even if it isn't practical or as successful as promised.

More then 30 years ago Metro-North removed all wayside signals.  The system was called "go -no go"  Kept dwarf signals at interlocks trains ran on cab signals only. That eliminated the unnecessary maintenance on signal masts and most of all safety for signal men who clime towers. May be some MN signal employee can explain how the system works.