Steam & Excursion > Backup Mallet?

The recent post about the last run of the cab forward over Donner brought this to mind. I have a friend whose father worked out of Watsonville, CA. She says that is what he called the cab forwards. Anyone else heard that term?

Cab forward is a "railfan term" and "Backup Mally" or "AC" would have been used by SP employees of the day, my source is a retired fireman.

I agree. The old heads here in Southern California refered to the AC's as "Mallets" (pronounced "Mallys", of course), "Backup Mallet" seemed to be more common up north. I believe that "Cab Forward" is one of the many "misterms" that have come from Model Railroader Magazine, along with "Turnout", "Crossing" for "Diamond", and the always funny "Coupler Lifting Lever".

Barry Draper

There are a few folks, rails and not, who refer to these as "back-peddlers".

Tom

A lot of the old heads in Oakland used to refer to them as "Malleys"; I never really heard the other term in regular use when they would talk about their experiences.

As a kid I remember usually hearing them called malleys by railroaders and older men who respected big, powerful machines of any kind.

I hired out on the Coast in 59 after steam, but in my many cab discussions with older heads the only term I remember is "malley". I did get the 4233 into my time book when I was called as a messenger to shepard her on part of her journey from Bayshore to the bone yard somewhere south.

JBW

puckeringswine Wrote:
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> Cab forward is a "railfan term" and "Backup Mally"
> or "AC" would have been used by SP employees of
> the day, my source is a retired fireman.

Well I guess that exposes me for what I am. :)
Thanks everyone for the info.

And if everyone keeps spelling it Malley because of how it's pronounced, we'll have a whole new group of people going around spelling it that way. Ebonics?
The name Mallet comes from the last name of the French dude who first designed articulated compounded engines.
Mark D.

Of course if you really want to get technical about it, none of the later "cab Forwards" were mallets, as they were all simple expansion engines. The prefix AC stands for articulated consolidation, the earlier models were MC class for Mallet Consolidation. SP rebuilt most MC class into AC class anyway. Isn't nit picking fun?

In a previous discussion John Bromley, recollecting his years growing up in or near Tehachapi, once referred to them as "back-ups".

My family and friends that worked for AT&SF and SP here in Southern California, all referred to the "Cab Forwards" as "Back-up Malleys". Correct spelling is, Mallet. Saying, "Well heck all they did was turn the engine around and run it in reverse".

About two weeks prior to pulling these great AC engines out of service, the then president of SP, was overheard calling them "Cab-forwards". These are nicks given to the AC's by the rails and not railfans. It is correct to refer to them using anyone of the nicks shared here in this thread. Technically they were AC's or articulated's.

The background for arriving at the nick "Back-ups", is similar to how the "Big Boys" and "Challengers", got their nick's.

RickH

Somewhere I recall reading that Calif. crews referred to the Lima AC-9's as "Backward Cab-Aheads." Did any of you ever run across that terminology? Thanks

> I believe that "Cab Forward" is one of the many
> "misterms" that have come from Model Railroader
> Magazine, along with "Turnout"

Turnout is not a "misterm", it is indeed the proper name for what most everyone on the railroad calls a switch.

As somebody who orders the real thing fairly often, I can tell you that if I call one of my suppliers and order a "switch" I'll get the movable points only. If you want the whole thing, you order a number 9 (or whatever) turnout. That will get you a switch, frog, and guard rails, if applicable, along with the special plating etc.

Granted, any railroader who isn't in the engineering department will probably call the entire thing a "switch" but that doesn't mean turnout isn't the proper term.

NYCSTL8 Wrote:
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> Somewhere I recall reading that Calif. crews
> referred to the Lima AC-9's as "Backward
> Cab-Aheads." Did any of you ever run across that
> terminology? Thanks

Yes, I recall hearing this. They are nicks and nothing more or less. Totally appropriate and feel free to use them. Why not it would be in keeping with the great american railroad lingo.

MRSR Bob Wrote:

Turnout is not a "Misterm" it is indeed the proper name...etc.

RickH's response:

No doubt in the world of engineering and requisitions "Turnout", is an appropriate and apt description used to describe the "whole unit". Very true. No argument there.

However..., (and you knew this was coming), I do agree with Barry Draper. Allow me to explain; In the world of American Railroad Lingo, as used by most "Switch crews" and "Switchmen" it is appropriate to call the track that allows cars to move from one track to another a "Switch". "Throw the turnout", "align the turnout", "call a turnout man" to assist with "turnouting the rail cars", and "where's the turnout herder", just doesn't sound right, under any circumstances. What happened to the "turnout crew"? Out for beans?

Nice job Bob, you'l have the railfans talking a new kind of railfanfoniese (did I just sneeze?) chuuckle hehehehe! Oh well. There again I may have started something knowing railfans as well as I do. Just hope this turnout thing doesn't take hold. Ahh, actually in some model rail circles it has.

Drive up the hill to Big Bear with impatient locals stacking up behind you, honking their horns, flashing their lights, jesturing with that infamous "Your number one" finger and you will quickly (we hope)learn what a real "Turnout", is all about. We mountain drivers are sure tempted to push those clueless flatlanders into a "Turnout". If they don't pull into one and get out of our way. The "Turnouts" are even marked with big bold signs saying "Turnout", "Slow traffic use Turnouts". Who reads signs these days, anyway? Oh... and no "switch" involved!

Well, It's almost Christmas and here come the flatlanders! Snow for skiing isn't bad. Not as good as what mother nature provides. Keeps our local hospital and Mercy Air busy.

Got to have some fun!

RickH

I have often wondered if the railroad use of Turnout, came about as a result of Model Railroader's usage. I think you will find turnout used on the real thing when the "switch" is controlled by remote means. To further complicate the issue, a Crossover consists of two switches, I have never been told to hand line the Crossover turnouts.

puckeringswine Wrote:
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> I have often wondered if the railroad use of
> Turnout, came about as a result of Model
> Railroader's usage. I think you will find turnout
> used on the real thing when the "switch" is
> controlled by remote means. To further complicate
> the issue, a Crossover consists of two switches, I
> have never been told to hand line the Crossover
> turnouts.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It was a Model Railroad article a number of years back that first started this dispute. Early form of PC. Since then, railfans and model railroad enthusiasts have gone to work for the railroads and as such, this term has penetrated the vernacular (railroad lingo). It hasn't been until recently, I actually heard a dispatcher talking to a local, he requested to "check a turnout" at a said milepost. Ususally it is "switch #3 no, switch #4 yes" and etc.

The term "Turnout" is freely used in europe. You will also find it used in America. I had the opportunity to look at the original plans for the D&RGW. There I found "Turnout" used. A european engineer inserted "Turnout", to describe what american railroad lingo refers to as a "Switch". No big deal. Just if you want to talk american railroad lingo then "Switch" is in keeping with tradition.

RickH - Just for fun.

I grew up around some SP employees in Oregon and always heard "back up mallet." (back then I would have probably spelled it malley) I knew that it meant the steam engines that had the cab in front. Never thought about why. Thats just the way it was.

Hmmmmm. Now about turnouts/switchs. I don't know what to think here. I have a book of Southern Pacific Common Standards. In it is a Switch Layout. No. 20 R.B. Mang. Frog. 30 ft. point Rails. For use with 110-lb. R.E. & 130-lb. R.S Rail.

(Dated) Adopted Apr. 10, 1928 Revised April 22, 1948

All of that is the title of the page.

At the top of the page is a note:

Switch stand to be placed on turnout side except when otherwise authorized.

At the lower left is a box with "TURNOUT DATA"

Number, angle, length on straight track, toe length on straight track, toe length on turnout, length of points, heel spread, angle, lead, lead curve degree, lead curve central angle, lead curve radius, radius of curved rail, straight closure, & curved closure.

jb

> In the world of American Railroad Lingo, as used by
> most "Switch crews" and "Switchmen" it is
> appropriate to call the track that allows cars to
> move from one track to another a "Switch".

Yes, as I said in my reply: Granted, any railroader
who isn't in the engineering department will probably
call the entire thing a "switch"

> MRSR Bob Wrote:
>
> Turnout is not a "Misterm" it is indeed the proper
> name...etc.
>
> RickH's response:
>
> No doubt in the world of engineering and
> requisitions "Turnout", is an appropriate and apt
> description used to describe the "whole unit".
> Very true. No argument there.

Seems we are both in agreement. Darn and I was up for a good verbal fight, war of words. No fight here. Have a good Holiday Season Mr. Bob. and all tuned in. Besides, it's a time for peace, right?

RickH

I'm a Canadian Railfan going back to the '50's and don't
recollect Railroader's using that term. I came across or took
notice of it when ordering switches in the late '80's

Ron