Steam & Excursion > Tricks or Techniques for starting a train on a grade?

I was wondering if anyone knows about any tricks or techniques for getting a consist moving again on a grade while using a steam locomotive as the power.

I think I have heard something about using the slack in the couplers to get a few cars moving, can anyone explain more about this? Any other techniques?


Thanks!

Starting a train on a grade with ANY engine much less a steam engine is a tricky piece of business if it is a steep grade. But slacking the train back is always a bad bad idea. The stress may not be bad or even felt up on the head end, but by the time the back end gets moving your likely to:

A: Strip the draftgear out of the cars somewhere in the consist.

B: Damage/Shift the load (Freight) or disassemble the interior (Passenger)

C: Piss off the Conductor when he finally gets back on his feet.

D: Answer to the car department and the Superintendant why you damaged the cars or engine.

There really is no trick to it other than experience.
Heres the basics: lay sand. Lots of sand. Put her in forward (or reverse if running backwards) Check the water, give the fireman a chance to say a prayer or two, say one yourself. Open the throttle with the engine brakes set, make sure the train is released, and gently let the engine brakes off. Be prepaired to slip. If she does and (most likely will), slam the throttle shut with one hand and open the sanders with another. Draw the throttle out quickly and try again.

If you get it moving, keep her open and stay on your toes until you are over two or three miles per hour at least. Pay attention and bring the johnson bar up slowly one notch at a time until you reach track speed. Make sure the fireman is keeping up and do what you can to ease his pain if your chewing up water and steam. From there you should have it made.

IF you can't get her to move without slipping, turn on the reverse sanders and roll back a car or two onto the sand so that all the drivers are sitting on it. Make sure the slack is out, Check the water, the steam pressure, stop cussing like a sailor, say a prayer and try again.

If that doesn't work, either cut the train and double the hill because the train is too much for your engine, or if you have room between signals or your track warrent gives you permission to move in either direction, and you can find the conductor to watch the shove, you can shove back to a level piece of track and get a running start. Try again, open her wide and listen for the first signs of slipping. Thats about it, there really are no "tricks" just experience.

Some guys open the cylinder cocks and try to lessen the power of the first couple of strokes while keeping the pressure in the cylinders high. This is silly because if you have to do that, then you have the throttle open too far.

To add to what gra2472 said, I actually do know a few tricks I learned from the old pros that taught me how to run. A couple of them are: 1. When you will have to start on a grade, steam or diesel, always STOP on sand. It seems elementary, but if you're not already using sand, hit them just soon enough before you stop to have sand under your drivers. Otherwise you'll have to be able to get started in order to get any sand under yourself. 2. When starting a steam engine on a grade, it often takes everything you have just to get the first inch of forward movement, at which time the engine is very likely to slip. A steam locomotive has an almost exponential increase in horsepower between dead stopped and even 1mph, so I was taught to watch the ground and just after the movement starts, probably just shy of the first exhaust, quickly close the throttle and then open it back up, and you will very likely be able to avoid that first immediate slip. Scott

flash34 Wrote:
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> To add to what gra2472 said, I actually do know a
> few tricks I learned from the old pros that taught
> me how to run. A couple of them are: 1. When you
> will have to start on a grade, steam or diesel,
> always STOP on sand. It seems elementary, but if
> you're not already using sand, hit them just soon
> enough before you stop to have sand under your
> drivers. Otherwise you'll have to be able to get
> started in order to get any sand under yourself.
> 2. When starting a steam engine on a grade, it
> often takes everything you have just to get the
> first inch of forward movement, at which time the
> engine is very likely to slip. A steam locomotive
> has an almost exponential increase in horsepower
> between dead stopped and even 1mph, so I was
> taught to watch the ground and just after the
> movement starts, probably just shy of the first
> exhaust, quickly close the throttle and then open
> it back up, and you will very likely be able to
> avoid that first immediate slip. Scott

Amen, brother!

Thanks for the information and the techniques you would use in getting the train rolling again, I wonder just how many people know how to do this kind of thing anymore.


another question, what are the warning signs that the locomotive drivers are about to slip?

Thanks Again!

To answer the first, everybody who cracks a throttle or regulator had better understand the above lessons before sitting down in the right hand seat or you'll get in trouble fast. Try it with a tall drivered beauty and you'll know what I mean. My proudest moment to date pulling throttle was over in Poland in a lashing rainstorm starting up Beautiful Helena (4-6-2) on a grade back to Wolsztyn. Got her going by easing out the regulator and like it was said earlier backing off to be sure we had hooked up and then getting back in again until she was happy and I could start backing off the reverser. And btw, the Poles don't do sand so it wasn't an option. We did have something over there that you don't see here and that's a gauge that measures steam pressure right in the cylinder.

One one of the narrow gauges, I did see the fireman break out a shovel and throw some dirt on the rails when we got stuck in a nasty curve and grade together.

Bill Larduskey

cwrmikado Wrote:
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> another question, what are the warning signs that
> the locomotive drivers are about to slip?

The earliest sign that I've been able to pick up on, confirmed in conversations with other steam engineers I've worked with, is a true "seat of the pants" feeling lasting but a fraction of a second - that the cab is moving sideways! When ya feel that happens, IMMEDIATELY back off the throttle and hit the sand if you havn't already, then pull the throttle just one notch past the point where resistance changes.

Yes, you can feel in the throttle whether or not the cylinders are actually using all the steam you're giving them, or whether you can give them more.

MTMEngineer Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> cwrmikado Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > another question, what are the warning signs
> that
> > the locomotive drivers are about to slip?
>
> The earliest sign that I've been able to pick up
> on, confirmed in conversations with other steam
> engineers I've worked with, is a true "seat of the
> pants" feeling lasting but a fraction of a second
> - that the cab is moving sideways! When ya feel
> that happens, IMMEDIATELY back off the throttle
> and hit the sand if you havn't already, then pull
> the throttle just one notch past the point where
> resistance changes.
>
> Yes, you can feel in the throttle whether or not
> the cylinders are actually using all the steam
> you're giving them, or whether you can give them
> more.

Ha! you beat me to the post. Been years since I was running a steam loco, but that sideways feeling is probably the dead giveaway and the strangest feeling in the right seat on a steam loco.

Here's one other suggestion for starting on a hill...hand sanding. That often gets things moving but leads to weird sensation #2 in the seatbox--feeling like you are running a locomotive on a dirt road.

Huh? Not take slack? But that's exactly what they used to do. Hundreds of first and second person accounts can't all be making it up. Surely it is possible to bunch the slack and start the train one car at a time without ripping out a drawbar or putting the rear end crew on the floor. Presumably a lot trickier to do back then with weaker couplers and primitive draft gear that it would be now. So why the disparity between modern practice and what they used to do all the time?

The question was about starting on a grade. Taking slack works on level track.

Interesting comments. The problem in starting steam is, of course, the shape of the tractive effort curve. It looks like a camel's hump, with max tractive effort at somewhere between about 15 and 35 mph, depending on the locomotive. By contrast, a diesel starts with maximum tractive effort, which then declines as speed increases. That's the explanation for the old saying, "A steam loco can move anything it can start, while a diesel can start anything it can move". It was not uncommon to use a yard switcher to shove a steam freight out of town. Once it had gotten into the "fat" part of the tractive effort curve, the loco would be fine unless it had to stop for some reason. That was also the reason for all the "low grade" lines; it was essential to enable the steam loco to stay at a speed that corresponded with its peak tractive effort. With a diesel, that didn't matter nearly as much, which is why so many of those low grade lines are gone.

filmteknik Wrote:
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> Huh? Not take slack? But that's exactly what
> they used to do.

Yes, on level track, but on a grade you're asking for trouble, as gra2472 described.

What you could try on a grade is to take a 6 lb reduction while the train is stretched, then lean back into 'em to bunch a few cars on the head end, and befor the whole thing starts rolling backward put the quadrant in the forward notch, throw the H-6 brake valve into release for two seconds, then quickly move it to running as you open the throttle. Then, you should be able to start each car as its brake releases. Don't try this on 26 brakes or an H-6 that has had it's release position castrated.

> The problem in starting
> steam is, of course, the shape of the tractive
> effort curve. It looks like a camel's hump, with
> max tractive effort at somewhere between about 15
> and 35 mph

You're thinking of the horsepower curve. No steam
locomotive ever had its maximum TE at 35 mph--
or at 15 mph AFAIK. Why would it? How could the
cylinder MEP be higher at 15 or 35 mph than
at 1 mph?

Ive read all the responses on this and agree with bitys and pieces of all. Some engines may not have any trouble starting a train and others may. If I was doing this I would hopefully have the engine stopped on some sand. If you backed into a place that was going to have you start up grade then you can lay sand as you go backwards, if you just stopped up grade then you have no chance to sand ahead obviously. I myself would just try and see if I could get the train started without any extra techniques.. If that does not work, then I would maybe do somehting like MTM mentioned of leaning back into the cars a bit. The thing about the coupler slack is that it may actually help you get a train moving as opposed to everything stretched tight, sometimes an engine sits where it might not want to move easy, but the little bit of slack in the couplers will get it in a better sport where it might move easier, this isnt about hopefully being in the spot to pull couplers or shift loads, but just enough to help the drivers to maybe want to turn.

If I get movement out of the slack from an initial throttle pull, I then back it off just a bit, then go after it again, sometimes you may need a bigger does of steam to get moving , then maybe not as much once you are moving, but that all depends, I do not hook up the valve gear on a big grade since you want full stroke and full power to get moving, some grades you could hook up the gear to accellerate a bit, sometimes you want full gear. I would also use some sand if conditions call for it, making sure to remember that if you have driver slip, back off the throttle first, wait for the slipping to stop, then hit the sand and then go back after it with the throttle, you do not want to sand while drivers are slipping.. I would almost say that you do what is neccessary to get started on a grade, and as far as tricks, I think most of the responses here agree even though there are different situations, different locomotives and every engineer is different then the other, but for the most part we all seemed to hit on some of the standard basics of tricks or techniques..

I guess if all else failed, you would have to get permission to do a reverse movement, have someone on the back and go reverse until you were on level ground, and make a run for it..:)

I have taken slack on a grade many times with quite good success. There was no jerking or severe trauma to the train draft gear, and the conductor was quite comfortable in the caboose. This was standard practice on my division, and everyone knew how to do it. You simply made a minimum reduction, and waited for the brakes to set on the entire train. You then backed against the train to bunch the slack. Once you had about half the train bunched, you increased the set to 10 pounds to ensure a release. (If the grade was steep enough to require 10 pouns to hold, then this step wasn't necessary). If the conductor had a radio and could let you know when the brakes were just beginning to release, then great. Most of the time we didn't, and just used our judgment to gauge when the brakes were beginning to release on the rear. We would then begin pulling ahead easy. It doesn't take much throttle to get bunched cars moving. The idea was to keep it really slow so that the rear portion of the train was fully released at the same time as the forward movement got to it, and the train would then start as if it were starting fully stretched. I have used this successfully on 1.5 percent grades many times, although not with steam power. You might consider this method for steam.

pb1