Steam & Excursion > 844 Maintenance

A while back, someone posted as to what was to be done on the 844 this winter, and repairing the superheater hangers was mentioned.
What are the superheater hangers, and how big a job is it to work on them? Does the entire superheater header assembly and superheater units have to be removed?
Thanks in advance for any information. Also any further info on the repair status on the 3985 would be appreciated.

Brian Black
Retired SP/UP Conductor

The header does not have to be removed or even disturbed.

"Hangers' is a misnomer. They are clamps with "feet" on them, that rest
on the bottom portion of the flue, to keep the unit itself from rubbing
on the flue and also keeping the unit reasonably centered in the flue, so
the hot gases can flow all around it.

It's about a 10 or 15 minute job to replace a clamp, assuming the new
clamps are all made up and ready to go. The time consumer and real grunt
work is pulling the unit out to do the work, then putting it back in when
done. Depending on the location of a given unit, that can take an hour
or two.

Of course, the exhaust nozzels and most other front end parts, including
the petticoat pipes, must be pulled out first, and reinstalled last.

So, in other words, bottom line, given the fact that we're not looking at a steam shop full of mechanic-types of the sort present sixty years ago....maybe several months. And, if the present highly skilled crew can do it in less time than that, FABULOUS.

John Bush
Omaha

Talking to Ed Dickens at Boone, IA Family days last September he told me the major thing that is need is a way to soften the water the that is used for the boiler. He told me that it would help the boiler and that both water tenders are rusting from the inside out

Greydog30 Wrote:
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> Talking to Ed Dickens at Boone, IA Family days
> last September he told me the major thing that is
> need is a way to soften the water the that is used
> for the boiler. He told me that it would help the
> boiler and that both water tenders are rusting
> from the inside out

I find THAT very difficult to believe. Both of those aux water tenders where completely rebuilt and the insides were "treated/coated" to prevent such rusting. Also, the UP steam crew has been treating the water in the tenders for years, and that is why each tender has those clear plastic tubes marked in "Gallons used", so the quantity of water treatment is properly added to each tender as fire hydrant water is added each day.

Besides, what 844 REALLY needs is new cylinder bore bushings, and new piston rings. The crosshead guides should also be redone in order to match the new cylinder bores.

Maybe he's talking about the 844s tender. When was the last time it was rebuilt?

Jstnothrfomr Wrote:
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> Maybe he's talking about the 844s tender. When was
> the last time it was rebuilt?

I doubt that also, but since I can't remember, I'll have to check and get back to you. But besides that, all the water treatment that has been going into ANY of the UP tenders would tend to preclude internal rusting. As a comparison, we add absolutely NO water treatment to either the main nor aux tenders on 4449, and neither of those tenders are "rusting away from the inside out". For what it's worth, we add water treatment directly to the boiler, thru the injector.

4-12-2 Wrote:
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> So, in other words, bottom line, given the fact
> that we're not looking at a steam shop full of
> mechanic-types of the sort present sixty years
> ago....maybe several months. And, if the present
> highly skilled crew can do it in less time than
> that, FABULOUS.
>
> John Bush
> Omaha

Naah.

Even back in steam days, it never took more than three or four people to pull and install superheater units.

Think about it.....just how many men can you cram into that smokebox at one time, anyway, not to mention them
getting into each other's way while trying to work.

Besides, this kind of work was done when the units were already out anyway, usually during a flue removal,
when the flues and the units would be sent to the boiler shop. The flues for cleaning, inspection, and
safe-ending, and the superheater units for cleaning, inspection and any necessary repairs (such as welding
up pinholes, etc. A good boilermaker and his apprentice or helper could easily replace all the clamps on a
full set of superheater units in less than a day.

While the units were out, the ball ends would be touched up and/or repaired as needed. Meanwhile, back in
the smokebox, another boilermaker, using a tool on an air motor, would dress the seats in the header for
those ball ends.

The flues and units would then be put into stock to be used later.

Greydog30 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Talking to Ed Dickens at Boone, IA Family days
> last September he told me the major thing that is
> need is a way to soften the water the that is used
> for the boiler. He told me that it would help the
> boiler and that both water tenders are rusting
> from the inside out

Softening the water would have no effect on rust at
all, eve assuming what he said is true.

A number of other modern steam operators have thought
softening the feedwater would cure all their ills, real
and imagined. After wasting a lot of time and money
on equipment and chemicals, they quit.

A couple decades ago one operator got talked into setting
us a softening system that including a reverse-osmosis
setup and something to adjust electrolites, nitrites,
nitrates, acne, bad breath, smoker's cough, BO and God only
knows what else.

It took up most of a tool car and worked s-l-o-w-l-y,
requiring constant supervision, adjustments and recalibration
every time the water source changed. And lots of mysterious
chemicals.

That didn't last very long.

Every so often, someone comes along who just has to reinvent
the wheel.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Greydog30 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Talking to Ed Dickens at Boone, IA Family days
> > last September he told me the major thing that
> is
> > need is a way to soften the water the that is
> used
> > for the boiler. He told me that it would help
> the
> > boiler and that both water tenders are rusting
> > from the inside out
>
> I find THAT very difficult to believe. Both of
> those aux water tenders where completely rebuilt
> and the insides were "treated/coated" to prevent
> such rusting. Also, the UP steam crew has been
> treating the water in the tenders for years, and
> that is why each tender has those clear plastic
> tubes marked in "Gallons used", so the quantity of
> water treatment is properly added to each tender
> as fire hydrant water is added each day.
>
> Besides, what 844 REALLY needs is new cylinder
> bore bushings, and new piston rings. The crosshead
> guides should also be redone in order to match the
> new cylinder bores.


HotWater: Just out of curiosity, where did you get your information on the "treated/coated" insides of the Aux Water Tenders? Also, what "treating/coating" was used, and when was it done?

HNGDCS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> HotWater: Just out of curiosity, where did you
> get your information on the "treated/coated"
> insides of the Aux Water Tenders? Also, what
> "treating/coating" was used, and when was it done?

Since Wasatch Railroad Contractors did all the work on those two aux tenders, it could have been one of the folks from that company, that I learned that information from.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HNGDCS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
>
> > HotWater: Just out of curiosity, where did you
> > get your information on the "treated/coated"
> > insides of the Aux Water Tenders? Also, what
> > "treating/coating" was used, and when was it
> done?
>
> Since Wasatch Railroad Contractors did all the
> work on those two aux tenders, it could have been
> one of the folks from that company, that I learned
> that information from.


HotWater: In your prior posting you stated that the inside of the Aux Water Tenders are "treated/coated" as a fact. I am just trying to find out what the "treatment/coating" is, and what the preparation and application procedures are.

HNGDCS Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HotWater: In your prior posting you stated that
> the inside of the Aux Water Tenders are
> "treated/coated" as a fact. I am just trying to
> find out what the "treatment/coating" is, and what
> the preparation and application procedures are.

As he mentioned you will have to get someone from Wassach to say exactly what was done, though I'd bet someone from MRSR could probably make a pretty good guess, since they probably do just about exactly the same thing.

At a rough guess, the tender tank was scaled and cleaned, then a rust-combining primer applied for a coat or two, then probably some sort of coating that is effectively a fairly thick plastic or tar, that is flexible enough to not crack under the motions the tender will undergo. This is guess from an outsider, and you really should get an answer from someone that has done this. Water system maintanance and treatment has come a long way since the 1940s, there are quite a number of proprietary 'systems' of chemicals that could be used for this, and probably any number of them would work perfectly well.

lwilton Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> HNGDCS Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > HotWater: In your prior posting you stated
> that
> > the inside of the Aux Water Tenders are
> > "treated/coated" as a fact. I am just trying
> to
> > find out what the "treatment/coating" is, and
> what
> > the preparation and application procedures are.
>
> As he mentioned you will have to get someone from
> Wassach to say exactly what was done.


lwilton, maybe you are right. We need someone from Wasatch to chime in and tell us what "treatment/coating" was used and how it was done.

HNGDCS Wrote:
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We need someone
from Wasatch to chime in and tell us what
"treatment/coating" was used and how it was done.

Why would they want to do something like that, on an open forum? It is their business to contract for such work so, why would Wasatch Railroad Contractors want to broadcast the results of all their research, on an open forum. You may be much better off to contact them directly.

Wild guess: Coated with POR-15 or something similar, after a thorough needle-scaling and/or sand blasting.

my info came from Ed Dickens the manger of the Steam Program about what the plans they need to do with 844

Re: needle scaling/blasting of loco-tender's water cisterns:


Some experiences....
1. 'Water treatment chemicals' DO NOT solve the dissolved oxygen challenge in cistern water.
2. Tender's interior rusting is the result of dissolved oxygen in the water --all that slopping around adds more entrained air.
3. Once 'rusted', the iron oxide is impervious to further corrosion, save for the sloshing of the tank water.
(de-Scaling and abrasion simply exposes more 'fresh iron' to to further oxidation...a less desirable outcome, maybe?)
4. (you?) Ever been down inside a loco's baffle-filled cistern with a sand blast outfit or needle scaler? (Bless you, my son!).
5. Ever seen the 'wells' (cast voids of reinforcing ribs: making a light[er] weight, rigid casting) of a cast water-bottom tender? Try blasting in there! (especially the underside of the floor ribs)
6. Best solutions (no pun intended) are the types that combine chemically with the existing rust and form a new, impervious compound.


There are plenty of current technologies available for a simple challenge...

Overfire Jets...


Note:
Interestingly, the Worthington locomotive feedwater heater systems (BL and SA-series) use and 'open' water heating chamber..... the cold water from the tender is forced through a 'spray head'. The rapid pressure-drop as the pressurized water exits the spray head causes the entrained air to burst free from the water (and is vented by a pipe near the stack); and thus, the water is De-oxygenated by the spray head. Experiment: Shake up a can of Coke and then open it!
You've released the dissolved CO-two, hopefully you didn't' get wet!

Thus many boilers experienced longer life due to the better oxygen-releasing features of open-type feedwater systems.

Greydog30 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> my info came from Ed Dickens the manger of the
> Steam Program about what the plans they need to do
> with 844

Figures. He didn't mention anything about 844 needing new cylinder bores, piston rings, and rebuilt crosshead guides????

wcamp1472 Wrote:
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> 4. (you?) Ever been down inside a loco's
> baffle-filled cistern with a sand blast outfit or
> needle scaler? (Bless you, my son!).

You're welcome.