Steam & Excursion > VMT Now Owns the Reproduction Rights to ALL of your 611 Photos

Fire Up 611 Trademark Page

"Do not use any Virginia Museum of Transportation brand assets, including our logo, the logo for Fire Up 611! or the likeness and image of the Norfolk & Western Class J locomotive or Class J 611 locomotive on merchandise and selling it for profit. This includes professional and amateur photography, works of art and handmade items."

VMT is now claiming that they own reproduction rights to all photos and videos of not only the 611 but of all N&W J class locomotives from the beginning of time and into the future.  I don't know about you but I will no longer support the VMT because of this shortsighted action that is basically a slap in the face to the fans that support the locomotive.

 

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/15 18:06 by RickRowlands.

It says no such thing.  It says you can't make or sell merchdise of the J-class, not that you can't take pictures for yourself.

BobE

Yes if you sell any of your photos for profit they want a piece of the action.  So you think that is right that they should be consulted before you sell a video or photos of the 611 taken during its first career as an excursion engine?  They had no part of the NS steam program back then.

Furthermore, I am at a loss to explain what this means:
"The Virginia Museum of Transportation is dedicated to chronicling our country’s rail heritage. As such, we ask writers and historians to work with our Virginia Rail Heritage Partners and Museum Curators and Historians before publishing any works of fiction and non-fiction. Permission from the Virginia Museum of Transportation must be given before any works of fiction or non-fiction are published. "
Apparently they are now claiming that they have veto authority over anyone's ability to publish a book about J class locomotives, even if none of the photos used comes from their collection. 

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage

O. Winston Link

Posted from iPhone

BobE Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> It says no such thing.  It says you can't make or
> sell merchdise of the J-class, not that you can't
> take pictures for yourself.
>
> BobE


So, does the O. Winston Link Museum now need to obtain permission to sell prints of long since scrapped Norfolk & Western Northern types taken by O. Winston Link took some sixty years ago?  If so, well.....  Montgomery Tunnel, 1955
 

Simple.  Don't sell your (    ) stuff.

BobE

 

I am sure all of the big players will be happy to obtain their licenses.  And I am not saying that it is not a bad thing to become licensed to sell 611 merchandise, I'm just trying to point out that this isn't something that should be done, and that it sets a bad precedent that could be copied by other steam operators.  It adds unneeded complications.

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage

There is no way they can keep you from selling what you own.  If they produced it, you do not have a right to copy it and sell them.  As far as pictures of the engine goes, if it is out in the public domain they will have one hell of a hard time saying some one can not video it and sell DVD's or pictures a person takes.  Lotsa luck VMT.

RickRowlands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Yes if you sell any of your photos for profit they
> want a piece of the action. 

Rick,

The great and all powerful Union Pacific already tried that, quite a few years ago. It was all part of that whole "licensing" mess. The first major loss for the UP, in court, was with Nils Huxtible over his UP annual calender. The UP tried to make a case for his usage of images of UP trains. The judge thought differently and the UP lost BIG TIME, and wound up paying Mr. Huxtible a huge amount of money!

The UP was about to loose a second major case against MTH Electric Trains. Luckily, Dick Davidson retired and the new CEO of UP, Mr. Jim Young, told his top legal man, Mr. Turner, to "put a stop to this, and get us out of this mess. I'm sick and tired of seeing reports in the Wall Street Journal about the UP being more concerned with toy train licensing, then running their railroad!". Thus, that was the end of the dictatorial UP licensing program.

I can't see the VMT trying to "get a piece of the action" from photographers using images of a train or locomotive out in the public domain.

Realistically I don't seem them doing that as well, but they are claiming that they have the right to do so and that rubbed me the wrong way.  I'm all for protecting intellectual property, but their trademark policy is extremely poorly written and they are clearly making an attempt to exercise control over every aspect of the 611.  I am sure that their attorneys know that much of what they are claiming would never hold up in court, so they are banking on the fact that due to the cost of lawsuits it will never be challenged. 
 

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage

RickRowlands Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Realistically I don't seem them doing that as
> well, but they are claiming that they have the
> right to do so and that rubbed me the wrong way. 
> I'm all for protecting intellectual property, but
> their trademark policy is extremely poorly written
> and they are clearly making an attempt to exercise
> control over every aspect of the 611.  I am sure
> that their attorneys know that much of what they
> are claiming would never hold up in court, so they
> are banking on the fact that due to the cost of
> lawsuits it will never be challenged. 

You may be right but, they better hope that Mr. Nils Huxtible doesn't produce a calender of HIS OWN 611 photos, and they try to go after him.

HotWater Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RickRowlands Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Yes if you sell any of your photos for profit
> they
> > want a piece of the action. 
>
> Rick,
>
> The great and all powerful Union Pacific already
> tried that, quite a few years ago. It was all part
> of that whole "licensing" mess. The first major
> loss for the UP, in court, was with Nils Huxtible
> over his UP annual calender. The UP tried to make
> a case for his usage of images of UP trains. The
> judge thought differently and the UP lost BIG
> TIME, and wound up paying Mr. Huxtible a huge
> amount of money!
>
> The UP was about to loose a second major case
> against MTH Electric Trains. Luckily, Dick
> Davidson retired and the new CEO of UP, Mr. Jim
> Young, told his top legal man, Mr. Turner, to "put
> a stop to this, and get us out of this mess. I'm
> sick and tired of seeing reports in the Wall
> Street Journal about the UP being more concerned
> with toy train licensing, then running their
> railroad!". Thus, that was the end of the
> dictatorial UP licensing program.
>
> I can't see the VMT trying to "get a piece of the
> action" from photographers using images of a train
> or locomotive out in the public domain.

HotWater, The VTM may have to learn the hard way just like UP did all those years ago. Common sense doesn't seem to be in managaement anywhere anymore.

Actually, VMT does have a stake in 611's excursion career 1982-1994 since she was leased to Norfolk Southern during that time by the museum. On the other hand, 1218 belonged to NS at the time and has since been transferred to VMT.

Nils Huxtable's 2015 Passing Trains calendar includes a photo of the 611.

http://www.steamscenes-cadeco.co.uk/calandars/cpassing_file/cpassingtrains.htm
 

From their website:<<Photography and works of artIf you are a photographer or artist wishing to sell small quantities of unique and original works featuring the Virginia Museum of Transportation or the Norfolk & Western Class J locomotive or the Class J 611 locomotive, please contact trademark@vmt.org.Generally, we do not allow photography or unique works of art to be sold on apparel (such as t-shirts, sweatshirts, hats, etc.), home goods (such as mugs, plates, cups), jewelry (charms, necklaces), books, or other mass-produced retail goods.Books or publicationsThe Virginia Museum of Transportation is dedicated to chronicling our country’s rail heritage. As such, we ask writers and historians to work with our Virginia Rail Heritage Partners and Museum Curators and Historians before publishing any works of fiction and non-fiction. Permission from the Virginia Museum of Transportation must be given before any works of fiction or non-fiction are published.  >>

As others have mentioned, they have painted far to broad a swath.  I'm sorry, but the First Amendment trumps trademark law.  

For the life of me, I don't see how they can even claim to have dominion over books, or for that matter videos, calendars etc.  The First Amendment isn't just for the "big" media.  It covers everything from the New York Times to the local NRHS newsletter.

This one really gets me: 
<<Permission from the Virginia Museum of Transportation must be given before any works of fiction or non-fiction are published.>>

If it were that easy, all The President and Hillary would have to do is trademark their names, likenesses etc, put that little sentence on their website, and then see the hours of dead air on Fox News because nobody could write anything about them without their permission.

I hope it doesn't get as nasty as the UP fiasco, but it would seem to me that the museum needs to consult with a good trademark attorney to get a better grasp on just what they can control and what they can't.

But if they are intent of controlling all things N&W Class J, I would suggest that they go for the biggest purveyor of 611 stuff there is, YouTube.  After they get done taking them to the cleaners, then they won't have to worry any more about funding. YouTube, by the way, is owned by a little tiny company called Google.

 



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/15 19:59 by DRGW483.

RICK:
They can only make a claim on profits related to 611 from the time they have owned it forward.
As such, they have no claim on photos prior to their ownership.
The whole thing sounds like they are stirring up a hornets nest for nothing.
I remember back in the 1970s some idiots running a steam special were going to put a shroud on the engine that would be taken off for run-bys to frustrate the chasers.
ALLEN 
 

Maybe folks should wait to see how they go about using their TM before getting angry about it.

Maybe VMT should just offer a superior product instead of trying to control the entire market. So far VMT's selection of 611 material for sale has been very poor.

Posted from iPhone

The important test of the enforceability of a trademark is whether the mark evokes thoughts of the owner in the minds of the public.  If I were to flash a photo of a glass bottle with a distinctive curved shape in front of you, immediately you would think "Coca-Cola".  If I showed a photo of a green tractor with yellow wheels, you would think John Deere.  So if I were to sell a green tractor with yellow wheels that I had manufactured, you might reasonably be confused as to whether it was a John Deere or not.  That is trademark infringement, because I used a mark in a way that confused buyers. 

OK, if I show a photo of an N&W J class locomotive and asked what it represented, your first thought would be Norfolk & Western.  Or maybe you might think Norfolk Southern.  Some might say it represents itself.  How many of you would think that it represented Virginia Museum of Transportation?  Not many, if any would say it did.  That is a huge problem for VMT.  A trademark's purpose is to evoke thoughts in your brain about what that mark represents. If it doesn't evoke thoughts of VMT,  then it is not doing its job as a mark.  It is tainted by the fact that the "mark" has already had 65 years in which to obtain a different meaning, a meaning which could never be changed in the minds of the public.  This in itself would be enough grounds for a challenger to prevail against VMT. 

Furthermore, nobody assumes that railfan videos and apparel comes from a particular source, so shirts and coffee mugs with the 611's image sold by a third party could not create confusion in the public's eye as to its source. We all know that a lot of different vendors sell this stuff.  Its not at all like the coke and John Deere examples.  In those cases those products come from only those two sources and nobody expects them to come from other sources. 

This issue is important, as it effects the availability of merchandise pertaining to our hobby.  It has nothing to do with whether or not the 611 or the VMT is worthy of support.  Even people that we love sometimes do the wrong thing, and we have an obligation to help them do the right thing.  If VMT prevails in this, others may attempt to do the same thing and create all sorts of confusion as they try to contort trademark law to do something that it was never meant to do.  

Rick Rowlands
Hubbard, OH
Youngstown Steel Heritage



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/15 21:36 by RickRowlands.

That is a very good explanation of trademarks.

-Fred-