Steam & Excursion > Why were no NYC Hudson or Niagaras were preserved ?

Which NYC President was responsible for neglecting to save a Hudson and a Niagara ? 
 The PRR saved more steam locomotives than the NYC. Why the indifference by NYC management ?

I think about the Hudsons everyday. I hope someone builds a replica along with or after the PRR T1 projecect.  I'll donate!

Al Perlman came aboard NYC in 1954.

I heard of a group trying to build a replica Hudson a few years ago. I don't know if it's still around however.

Classic Trains did a special edition called 'More Trains of the 1950s' last year that had an interesting article by David P. Morgan about then-NYC-President Alfred Perlman.  After reading it, I came away impressed with Perlman as a manager, who tried mightily to reinvent the NYC and save it from its outdated practices.  By the early 1950s (i.e. the time of wholesale dieselization of American railroads), the NYC was in very bad shape.  Perlman came in an attempted to correct many operating inefficiencies that were strangling the NYC.  Examples included consolidation of many redundant diesel maintenance facilities and making changes to allow the NYC to be competitive with roads with more enlightened operating practices such as the Nickel Plate.  It is little wonder that, in the rush to replace 1930's practices with 1950's practices, steam locomotives were unceremoniously tossed aside without thought of preservation.  It is a shame that not one of the Central's 275 Hudsons or 27 Niagaras were preserved or donated.

 

Perlman is usually the one credited for scrapping all the Hudsons.   He was, as the previous poster said, an excellent manager, but he invoked the rage of Central and steam fans for the fact that no Hudons were preserved.

Perlman knew he answered to the stockholders. 'Nuf said, as sad as it may be.

Al left his mark on the WP and D&RGW.

TrackGuy

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So-called 'stock holders' were large financial institutions of the day: Trusts, Banks, insurance companies, OTHER railroads and additional holders of large blocks of stocks.

Such owners expected continuous dividends, continued stock price appreciation, the benefits of preferred stock, solid income from RR bonds, etc.

After WW2, other investments provided quicker price appreciations, and more sizzle.
Old fashioned, staid investments and their solid returns were soon abandoned & more rapidly appreciating investments were sought-after as the American economy virtually exploded.
Railroads found that they could not compete with companies that benefitted from government spending plans like the Interstate Highway build-out, etc...

So, ( partly to survive) they began the spiral into self-consumption, drastic cut-backs in plant and facilities, and REDUCED massive quarterly income tax payroll contributions to the IRS by slashing the numbers of 'non-op employees' on the their payrolls, consolidating, through mergers, the duplicative administrative staffs, and selling-off whole blocks of steamers for scrap, and thus reducing the asset taxes that were levied on those locos that were listed on their rosters. Also land with rails on it is taxed at higher rates than right of way without tracks, thus many miles of rails were ripped out and single tracking became common.
Culling the ' inventory'.....

W.
not yet spell checked....



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/16 14:35 by wcamp1472.

Thanks to all of you with your informative responses on my question about NYC steam preservation ! 

Perlman was quoted as laughing off railfans' quest to save steam. I think I've seen the quote at the NYC Yahoo Group.

​Victor A. Baird
​http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Two Mohawks have been preserved, one at the St Louis museum and another at Elkhart.   Here's wishing them both a nice shelter someday. 

TrackGuy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Perlman knew he answered to the stockholders.
> 'Nuf said, as sad as it may be.
>
> Al left his mark on the WP and D&RGW.
>
> TrackGuy

He also left his mark on the Yosemite Valley Railroad.  The D&RGW needed rail.  Pearlman bought the YV and scapped it to reuse the rail on the D&RGW. 

Just a question, but wouldn't some of those old steamers have qualified as a charitable tax deduction, possibly in excess of their scrap value?  For those of you that are familiar with vintage NASCAR, K&K Insurance owner and race team owner Nord Krauskopf donated one of his Famous winged Dodge Daytonas to the International Motorsports Hall Of Fame museum at Talladega Alabama. He claimed a tax deduction of something like $100,000, real money back a few decades ago.  The IRS balked, he took it to court, and the judge said the $100,000 was NOT ENOUGH, and raised the value he was allowed to deduct.  The way the collector car market is now, that's probably a million dollar car at least. 

Is it known whether or not any organized effort was made to save one?

I don't mean individual letters from fans to the railroad pleading for one; I mean
a formal effort with good people and a plan and some money behind it.  Such
as having a place to put it and protect it already lined up.

There is usually more to these tales than meets the eye.

There are a lot of stories (some of them true) about how certain locomotives
never got preserved due to the complete lack of any of the above.  And of others
that were offered but were rejected by the proposed recipient group(s) for various
reasons from lack of funds to abject stupidity and stubbornness.

I know of at least one major road that would donate a locomotive on the single
condition that the recipient raise enough money to maintain and protect it rather
than letting the birds, bums, weather and vandals have their way with it.  That
RR CEO was very frank about the fact he had seen far too many locomotives
painted up and given to cities with great fanfare, only to see the locomotive totally
neglected or worse, the city pestering the railroad every few years to fix it
and repaint it. He felt a derelict display locomotive was a bad reflection on the
donor railroad and he would not stand for that. So his policy was to offer to
sell an engine for scrap price.  Then when the city got the money he would
donate the engine and donate the money back to the city to ensure the upkeep.

This was in the very early 1960's, and he stuck to his guns.  His railroad ended up
giving away very, very few locomotives, but OTOH, all are still around all are
sheltered and are very well maintained to this day.

Perlman gets the blame, just as some flat-earth type foamers blame David Goode
for the end of the NS program in the '90s, when that was not the case at all.

 

There was always the NdeM "junior" Niagras (their spelling), last count there was like five
of those still around.

Out

Realist, I sure don't know of any organized attempts to convince Central management to preserve a Hudson or Niagara.  It is kind of surprising, considering the fact that so many old steam hoggers just hated the fact that diesels were taking over.  That, and the fact that many cities along the line owed their very existence to the railroad.  Surely someone in Schenectady, home of Alco, must have had an interest in preserving one.   I have also heard that the Central's financial condition was so dire that the scrap value of the locomotives was considered much more important than any preservation efforts.  It's hard to imagine that I once saw Hudsons, Mohawks, Niagaras, Pacifics, Mikados and lesser breeds lettered "New York Central" running daily on all four tracks of the Water Level Route.  At least I have the memories.  Photo is a rare shot of J-1e 5315 before it was destroyed in a wreck in my home town in 1940.  Friend Ron Morse sent it to me, then it appeared in Tom Gerbracht's new book "Know Thy Hudsons."

---

From a roundhouse mechanic at Blount's original site...the B&M facility at Bellows Fall, VT,  I was told a a young mechanic ( apparently a former Brit) that Blount had negotiated for a long time with the powers-that-be of  the NYC RR, in Albany, with intent on obtaining a NYC 4-6-4.

After a lot of discussions, Blount was invited to the Prsidents's office, in Albany.
Blount was sure it was good news....

When he got there, apologies were made, that although no physical Hudsons were saved, the RR was presenting Blount with a famous, framed, colorized, large size photo of a J1 Hudson, but no REAL Hudson.....

Blount was extremely disappointed, and left with the picture.....
It seems to me, also, that Ed Meade ( who succeeded Blount as chairman of the board of Steamtown, after Blount's tragic accident) corroborated that story....

Supposedly, it was during this time that Blount acquired the NKP 759 from the 'retired'  line at Conneaut, Ohio --- with complete original ICC documents and pedigrees supporting the condition of the boiler and the 1959 rebuild and attestations of 759 at Conneaut.

The 759's boiler-work, in 1959 was performed by none other than, Joe Karal, NKP RR boilermaker.
Joe became our mentor during the "High Iron years", -----  he and Doyle were also instrumental in getting the NKP 765 running with the guys from Fort Wayne --- and Joe was the major force in the Portland Crew that restored the SP 4449, in 1975.    
Thank you, Nelson, thanks to Ed Meade, thanks to Ross, Doyle and Joe for having inspired so many folks that got the wonderful array of restored engines that are steaming today..... The many recent restorations of locos----  inspired by so many across this land that understood from guys like Joe....that,  YES, it can be done !!!!

Another sad story: Supposedly, a NYC Hudson was acquired by another locomotive collector, Paulsen Spence, of Louisiana (?).  
Spence had started collecting many significant steamers, including Mohawks, etc. for his own collection in the early-to-mid 1950s.  
Supposedly, in that collection was a preserved Hudson that he bought during that period.  
He also mught have acquired a NKP Hudson, too.

Sometime around 1958(?), Spence died unexpectedly, and his estate, including the entire collection of significant U.S. locomotives was liquidated for scrap money and the assets were distributed the the heirs......
I attribute that story to Al Phillips, now supporting the TVRM.

[I'm pissed that we don't have a screaming Niagara to thunder down the rails.....On the other hand, it could be marooned somewhere in New York State, sitting on a site whose only access is via CSX.....]

But, at least it would be extant!
Luckily, we have other GREAT 4-8-4s to admire as they wander the land... Including a near-twin, the C&O 614.....if fitted with a Worthington FWS !!!

W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/16 14:58 by wcamp1472.

wcamp1472 Wrote:

> Another sad story: Supposedly, a NYC Hudson was
> acquired by another locomotive collector, Paulsen
> Spence, of Louisiana (?).  
> Spence had started collecting many significant
> steamers, including Mohawks, etc. for his own
> collection in the early-to-mid 1950s.  
> Supposedly, in that collection was a preserved
> Hudson that he bought during that period.  
> He also mught have acquired a NKP Hudson, too.
>
> Sometime around 1958(?), Spence died unexpectedly,
> and his estate, including the entire collection of
> significant U.S. locomotives was liquidated for
> scrap money and the assets were distributed the
> the heirs......
> I attribute that story to Al Phillips, now
> supporting the TVRM.

When ever the Paulson Spence story comes up, I've been trying to identify the engines in his collection.  The attached file is my best effort to document that information.  Any additions or changes are welcome.

 

---

Thanks so much for the list of the engines in Spence's collection.
Most of my information episode second and 3rd hand, so it's great to have a more reliable list.

I am grateful that the 4-4-0s were saved, rather than scraped..
Thanks for posting.

​W.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/16 17:24 by wcamp1472.

Let's say we build new a Hudson ala the Tornado in Great Britian. Money, skills, people. A masterpiece.......where can we run it?

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