Steam & Excursion > Most likely parts to be original

What parts of a steam locomotive most likely to be original?  This question may sound vague so I'll explain my thought process behind it.  All the talk about the history behind 844 but the replacement of nearly everything made me begin to wonder if there are any original parts left on the locomotive.  To further expand on that thought process, I began to wonder what parts may be most likely original on historic locomotives all over the country.  I would think large components such as the wheels but what else? Hopefully this isn't a stupid question, but from my perspective I am "steam stupid" anyway.

Thanks!
-James Wright

I'd guess maybe the boiler in some cases. Start any 844 discussion here, and you've got yourself a hot mess.

99.8% of the cases, the boiler is original.  Over the years, things have a way of migrating to different engines as they go through the back shop.  I think I counted something like 15 different engine numbers marked on parts on 1522.  Not uncommon.  Think about a transmission rebuilding shop.  If you take your car in, the odds are they will put one in it from off the shelf.  Works just fine.
Frisco had a trait of designing enges of different classes that could use interchangeable parts.  i.e.  The 1500 4-8-2s and the 4100 2-8-2s had many parts that would interchange.  Just makes good sense.

Wile working as part of the original restoration crew on
the SP 2472, I found parts from 16 other locmotives.
There may be more locomotive numbers I did not see.
RRs used whatever parts they had on hand to repair
locomotives.

The SP 2472 ran for about 35 years before she was retired.

In many cases, boilers have been replaced, too.  And, of course, the older the engine the more likely it would have more had more parts replaced.  Or, even parts pf parts - why replace a whole boiler if ony part of the firebox needs replacement?

I would not expect to find a complete original boiler on any "historic" engine before about 1900, since at about that time lap seam boilers were determined to be a bad idea.

Tenders were swapped around like Johns in a whorehouse.

Air brake systems were replaced and upgraded.  And, even today operators are not hesitant to modify to some variation of the 26 series system, which was not even introduced until 1957.

Often, built up, fagotted, forged, or flamecut frames were upgraded (in whole or in part) or replaced.

Cylinder castings were ususally (not always - sometimes just the valve chests) completely replaced when a saturated engine became a superheat.  Or, when a compound was simpled.

Drivers - may be original, but it was not uncommon to replace, especially the main driver.  Pilot, trailing truck, and tender wheels are probably replacements.

Many "parts" are consumables - bearings, nuts and fasteners, flues, superheater elements, etc.

Locomotive are like the old loggers axe - nine new handles and two new heads, but it's still the same axe.

-LD

It is interesting how many parts, including major ones like a boiler, have been replaced on many engines.  Some of the nickel steel boilers were completely replaced.  Even smokestacks were redesigned and replaced.  Certainly "jewelry" like headlights and bells and whistles were replaced.  Many items failed or were worn out and replaced.  Tubes and flues for sure.  Sandboxes (or domes) were enlarged and replaced.  Drivers often, especially when Boxpok and Scullin discs were found to hold up better than spoked, especially on main drivers.  Hmmm, maybe the builders plates remained original?

The boiler shell, the smokebox, the main frame (includes cylinders) , the firebox roof and
wrapper sheets on 844 are all original.

Frisco1522 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Over the years, things have a way of migrating to
> different engines as they go through the back
> shop

  Just this afternoon, I was at L.A.'s Travel Town, examining different types of srping hangers, and noticed that the WP #26 has several parts marked #22, and that was just on the spring rigging.

T&P 610 has many engine numbers stamped on the rods.  If I remember correctly only one rod on it had 610.  Many times a rod would have 3-5 engine numbers stamped on it.

Same thing for the 765- many parts from different locos, especially the rods.  There was something from a NKP Hudson, and then the corker, one of the piston valve covers has "C&O" cast into it, to this day.

Funny that this subject came up, since Friday while visiting 765, I started looking for all the different engine numbers stamped on the running gear.  I would be curious to know, (if it would even be possible to know), if 779 or one of the other surviving Berks has the side rod that had to be made after the fact that made 779 the last Lima built steamer to leave the plant instead of the L&N loco that was SUPPOSED to be.

I know the 765's gear connecting rod (engineer's side) is from the 779, there is something else on the fireman side that is from the 779.... But I can't recall what it is at this time.

There are 12 different Berks represented in the 765's running gear.

Posted from iPhone



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/16 20:13 by Conrail7659.

This is a good topic.

?I have owned, worked on or appraised more than three dozen locomotives in my 49 plus years of railroad experience.

?The amount of original material on or in a given locomotive depends on its age, ownership and usage.

?For multiple locomotives built by the same builder in the same class for railroads prior to WWII you will find that parts were swapped between locomotives during shopping, rebuildings or major upgrades.

?Many locos built around the turn of the 20th century received new boilers, new cylinders and saddles, new valve gears, new wheels and different tenders and cab appliances. Many were converted from coal or wood fire to oil fire.

?One locomotive I worked on was one of five built in 1905 for a railroad in New Mexico. It had parts stamped for each of the five locomotives and a different tender from another locomotive in the class.

?For locos built during and after WWII major changes were less common, but still occurred.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/16 20:49 by px320.

I've been reading this thread with great interest and with various components seemingly moving freely between different locomotives why bother to stamp the engine number on parts at all?  Did the builders stamp each part when the locomotives were built?  Did the railroads do the stamping to identify the original number so it was obvious to the shop workers when looking for a replacement on a locomotive in the same class?  For example the SP 4449 goes into the shop for work on its BO air pump and there is an air pump in the store room that was originally off the 4444 that could be used. The shop worker knows the air pump from the 4444 will fit the 4449 perfectly so he grabs it, installs it, and the 4449 is back on the road quickly.  Maybe that's a stupid example but there has to have been some logic to it all!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/22/16 21:41 by SP4436.

Things like appliances (injectors, feedwater pumps, lubricators, air pumps, reversers, etc.
were almost generic.  This material would be kept by the Store Department and delivered to
a certain bay where the locomotive that needed it was, as ordered by the foreman.

Parts were tracked for a lot of reasons and that's why all mechanical facilities had hordes
of clerks, who kept all the records.  If say, a main road failed, they could see every engine
it had been on, every time and place it had been magnafluxed, etc.  In some cases this
could reveal failure patterns, and it also let them keep track of the life of a part or series of
parts. 

Some parts could be reused in other classes of locomotive.  For example, crank pins from
a high-speed engine could be pressed out after X miles, turned down, and put in freight
or switcher wheels. Same for lead and trailing axles.  You'd still want to be able to find out
how old it was, how much mileage it had gone, what engine(s) it had been in before, etc.

I know of a large, main-line passenger engine that broke a main rod at speed.  Severe damage
resulted, but luckily the locomo9tive didn't derail.  By tracing the history of that rod, they learned
it had been on a locomotive previously that had hit an oil truck and been burned.  Although it
looked and tested OK, that set up a failure that announced itself later when it broke.

Here's a picture I took a couple months ago, relevant to the discussion. 

---

flash34  ---
Where on the SP 4449 is that part stamped "4443"??

Speaking of rods breaking ---
A fellow GGRM member who was in the GGRM when we
were in Hunters Point was a Milwaukee Road steam-era
fireman.  He used to fire their high-speed F-7s (Hudsons)
and told me of a time when a rod on the en the engineer's
side broke at speed.  Luckily, his engineer was not hurt. 
Turned out that someone had forgotten to oil the crosshead
guide on the engineer's side.  But the flailing rear part of that
rod could easily have rammed into the cab on the engineer's
side and killed the engineer!  (Or so I was told long ago.

Those of you who are interested can look up my list of the
16 locomotives whose parts are now on the SP 2472 in my
post in this thread:

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?10,4058950,4059163#msg-4059163

Thanks, Realist!
I had forgotten that the shopmen where the locomotive had been
worked on also stamped the code for that shop on the part.  Now
I remember seeing "BS" for "Bayshore" on at least one part on the
SP 2472.  When I made that list back in the 1980s, I did not think
to record that.  Darn!  And her initial restoration, when we removed
all the paint and grease and dirt from everything, and took just about
everything apart, was probably the only time anyone was ever able
to see all those locoomotive numbers and dates and shop codes.
Shopmen also stamped the date the part was installed on the part. 
But --- I did not record that, either -- darn!  Most of the numbers and
dates ans shop codes are under layers of paint, and are not visible
until/unless the part is removed and the paint on it is removed.

It was a very good idea to keep track of those locomotive parts and
and the shops where the locomotives were worked on, and the dates
the parts were installed.

About swapping tenders ---
The SP 2472 has the SP 4326's oil bunker, because "4326" is
stamped on the left side of her oil bunker.   There must be an
interesting story behind why the SP shopmen replaced at least
that oil bunker, but it is "lost in the mists of time".  As are all the
stories behind all the other numbers on the '72.  Sigh.....  (I love
interesting stories!)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/16 10:45 by Margaret_SP_fan.

Hello

​Its not just locomotives, Caboose's and passengers cars have the same issues going on.  an perfect example is the OSL 3505 caboose at boulder city, It was wreck repaired  and looks nothing like it's builders photos.

Also the Flying scotsman has the parts of many locomotives, I have a book on the scotsman that details the vars. parts and where they came from.

Baldwin 60000 at ​Franklin Institute is consider to be the most original in parts locomotive.



 

Cjcheely Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hello
>
>
> Baldwin 60000 at ​Franklin Institute is consider
> to be the most original in parts locomotive.

>  
Considered by whom?

As it ran so little, I wouldn't doubt it.

All of these things evolved throughout their service lives. Changes, visible or not, were the norm.

It's one of the things that drives the "original fabric" crowd nuts.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/23/16 18:31 by Realist.

Margaret, that photo is the left #4 driver. I did a brief search that day and couldn't find any other drivers obviously labeled with any other numbers.