Steam & Excursion > Something As Simple As Missing A Meet Can Create Quite An Impact!

Railroading today with all it's electronic communication and safety devices is still a dangerous job.  But back in 1928 with only written orders to go by train crews had to be alert to avoid certain death.

It was on one fateful day in 1928 near Largo, California that the crew on a Northwestern Pacific passenger train overlooked that they were to "meet" another train at a siding with this being the result.  The broken cylinder saddle, broken smoke stack and crushed cab shows the severity of the impact when these 2 trains met in a cut on a blind curve.  3 engine crew lost their lives in this terrible wreck.

Railroading during the days of steam power was certainly a very dangerous occupation.

Martin



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/16 04:24 by LoggerHogger.

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The first photo is somewhat disquieting.  Why are two lovely women fashionably dressed in white at the center of the photo.

Dont think it was fashon as they dressed diffrent back then could have been one of the company brass there family.

> Dont think it was fashon as they dressed diffrent
> back then

That's why I made the comment.  They could have stepped off the cover of a 1928 fashion magazine.  Brass family?  I'd go with that.  It's still creepy.

Same engine that went into the Eel River at Scotia Bluff in 1953.

Lighter Wrote:
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> > Dont think it was fashon as they dressed
> diffrent
> > back then
>
> That's why I made the comment.  They could have
> stepped off the cover of a 1928 fashion magazine.
>  Brass family?  I'd go with that.  It's still
> creepy.

Back then stuff like train wrecks drew a lot of public interest and they seem to have complete access too.

Nurses perhaps?

'Puff

4451Puff Wrote:
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> Nurses perhaps?
>
> 'Puff

Wearing what they're wearing in the picture? Maybe if they're "off duty". Those aren't nurses uniforms.
My mom and my grandmother were nurses and that doesn't look anything like the uniforms they wore back in the early 20th century.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/16 11:53 by PHall.

 Makes me wonder hw one forgets a meet the crews surely had proper orders governing the where and when of said meet, someone apparently over-ran the appointed siding, a Cardinal Sin in rairoading.  Regards the young lovlies, as an RN myself, I agree, they are in their "civvies", not uniforms.  In those days no RN would show up for duty without the required cap, such a stunt was unheard of.  My first thought ws that they were passengers on one of the trains, as were the other bystanders.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

The crew might have known where to meet but decided they had enough time to take a chance and get to the next siding. That was allowable, believe it or not.

Victor A. Baird
http://www.erstwhilepublications.com



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/01/16 18:27 by wabash2800.

wabash2800 Wrote:
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> The crew might have known where to meet but
> decided they had enough time to take a chance and
> get to the next siding. That was allowable,
> believe it or not.
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Yes, quite true.  But, if that were the case, then we're talking instead a huge miscalculation.  Further affecting the situation, I believe this was unsignalled territory, thus making the supposed call to move the site of that meet all the more risky.  AA

Stanford White
Carmel Valley, CA

Yup, Stanford, but we both may know of cases where they did that under manual block, TT&TO with no signals and suffered the consequences.

Victor A. Baird
​http://www.erstwhilepublications.com

Also, was the 16-hour hog law in effect then, or none at all? A 12-hour shift leaves people tired, 16 leaves them dangerous and after that...miscalculations, forgetting orders or not being able to see signals as well would be easy.

Rebecca Morgan
Jacobsburg, OH

wabash2800 Wrote:
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> The crew might have known where to meet but
> decided they had enough time to take a chance and
> get to the next siding. That was allowable,
> believe it or not.
>
> Victor A. Baird
> http://www.erstwhilepublications.com
In my opinion and 1st hand experience you may be confused. Train order rules were very specific and absolute and could only be changed by issuing another train order. To do otherwise would lead to death, injury and/or being fired which ever came first from the catastrophic property damage. There were situations in mainlines operating with either ABS or CTC that a crew could keep going on signal indication as long as they cleared 1st Class trains operating with timetable authority within required time limits. Or the Yard Limit rule allowed trains to operate at restricted speed (20 MPH or less, plus several additional stipulations) and give way to 1st Class trains. However, it is most important to remember to check the Bulletin Book (required reading) before starting each trip to see if there were any changes to the timetable, specials instructions, or operating rules. Each railroad had their own set of rules and special instructions so to make a generalization would lead to a deadly crash that Mr. Hansen has graciously shared with us. Rules were written in blood, especially train order rules. I was lucky that I worked on the mainline of the Santa Fe with Automatic Train Control with cab signals, TCS and 20 miles of ABS. Our only train order or "Dark Territory" was on the Pekin District on the Illinois Division where we ran 57 miles with 2nd Class trains with timetable authority and there might be just two or three trains at a time on the entire district at one time. So will defer to anyone else who can shed more light on the comment especially taking note of "decided they had enough time to take a chance and get to the next siding". That falls into the unwritten rule of assuming will make an ASS of you every time. Thank you for your thoughts.
Steve Rippeteau

wabash2800 Wrote:
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> The crew might have known where to meet but decided they
> had enough time to take a chance and get to the next siding.
> That was allowable, believe it or not.

With no communication with the opposing train or other knowledge of said train's position? I'll choose "not".

 

justalurker66 Wrote:
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> wabash2800 Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > The crew might have known where to meet but
> decided they
> > had enough time to take a chance and get to the
> next siding.
> > That was allowable, believe it or not.
>
> With no communication with the opposing train or
> other knowledge of said train's position? I'll
> choose "not".
>

Likewise. I worked with some SP old heads in Bakersfield who told me about "smoke orders" between Mojave and Burbank Jct. As a train approached a meeting point, the fireman would throw a scoop of sand in the firebox, emitting a big black cloud of soot. They would watch ahead for an "answer." No smoke, no train and they would go to the next station.  That wasn't a very good idea in the desert. It certainly wouldn't work on the NWP.

TAW

wabash2800 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The crew might have known where to meet but
> decided they had enough time to take a chance and
> get to the next siding. That was allowable,
> believe it or not.

I have heard it said thago anywhere and do anything on a flag (following a flagman). Well, yes, sort of, but that isn't permission to freelance. A flat meet is a flat meet. There is no allowed alternative. I one time had a flat meet out at Los Banos (SP CA). The operator OSed the train by. Dying a thousand deaths as I grapped the train order book, he told me that the trainmaster stopped the opposing train for work at Dos Palos and told the west man to ignore the meet and go to Dos Palos. My reaction was, lets say, colorful and incindiary. Nobody is allowed to ignore a train order meet ever.

There have been crews that overlooked a train order meet. It generally happens on a district that has light traffic. People get complacent when there isn't much to do. They sometimes get to pay with their lives.

However, do we know that they overlooked a train order meet? Did they overlook the time of the opposing superior train? Were they confused about which one was superior? Were they bucking time and figured wrong? Any of those could have happened if the specific actual cause was not overlooking a train oreer meet.

TAW

"... northbound passenger train No. 2, which was a mail-baggage combine, baggage, smoker and coach, pulled by engine 141, and a southbound freight extra, Extra 184 South, with 31 cars and a caboose. At Hopland, the first open office south of Largo, No. 2 received order No. 32 on Form 31, which read: "No 2 Eng 141 meet Extra 184 South at Largo," and left at 11.40 am. Extra 184 received this order on Form 19 at Ukiah, 10 miles north of Largo, and departed at 11.27 am.

"Every crewman on No. 2 saw the order, except for the flagman, Allen, who could not leave the last car. Though they had met other trains on the way from Tiburon, and exchanged the meeting point signals, this time the whistle was silent at Largo, and No. 2 simply passed by. The engineman and fireman of Extra 184 were killed in the subsequent collision, as well as the engineman of No. 2. We note that the two orders were in correct form, properly delivered, and were not delivered far from the point at which they were to be executed."

https://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/railway/trainord.htm#Larg



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/02/16 19:22 by justalurker66.

justalurker66 Wrote:
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> "... northbound passenger train No. 2, which was a
> mail-baggage combine, baggage, smoker and coach,
> pulled by engine 141, and a southbound freight
> extra, Extra 184 South, with 31 cars and a
> caboose. At Hopland, the first open office south
> of Largo, No. 2 received order No. 32 on Form 31,
> which read: "No 2 Eng 141 meet Extra 184 South at
> Largo," and left at 11.40 am. Extra 184 received
> this order on Form 19 at Ukiah, 10 miles north of
> Largo, and departed at 11.27 am.
>
> "Every crewman on No. 2 saw the order, except for
> the flagman, Allen, who could not leave the last
> car. Though they had met other trains on the way
> from Tiburon, and exchanged the meeting point
> signals, this time the whistle was silent at
> Largo, and No. 2 simply passed by. The engineman
> and fireman of Extra 184 were killed in the
> subsequent collision, as well as the engineman of
> No. 2. We note that the two orders were in correct
> form, properly delivered, and were not delivered
> far from the point at which they were to be
> executed."
>
> https://mysite.du.edu/~jcalvert/railway/trainord.h
> tm#Larg

Thanks. I didn't have time to do any research, so I was going over things that could have been construed as overlooking an order.

This is particularly egregious. The train order meeting point was less than 4 miles from where they got the order (per Google map). They had to stop and sign for the order. At least three on the crew saw the order, maybe four if there was a brakeman in addition to the flagman. Two of them had to go to the telegraph office and sign it...and they forgot in four miles.

TAW

Thanks for finding the dates and the rest of the story.

Martin